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Details: Written by: Willem Boone

Den Haag, 5 March 2014

The German pianist Christian Zacharias has been called “an eternal student” in France. Up until ten years ago; indeed, at 40, he looked like 25. At 64, he now looks more like an “elder statesman” (the name of George Clooney comes to mind), but apart from that, he still resembles a young boy or student, especially when he enthuses about music..

Willem Boone: When I think of you, I think directly of Scarlatti, Mozart and Schubert. There are of course other composers, but do you mind when I mention these three composers first of all?

Christian Zacharias (CZ): I have to almost fight to play other composers, but yes, these composers are still central to my repertoire. I don’t want to abandon them completely, but my repertoire has grown substantially. I want to learn new scores all the time and I do not want to become a specialist. Also as a conductor, I am often asked to perform Mozart. However it would be bad to be a specialist of Hummel or Field…

WB: When I think of you, I am also reminded of Wilhelm Kempff, not only because of the repertoire, but also as far as your playing is concerned. How strong is your connection with the German school?

CZ: That’s interesting, since I used to reject him when I was young. His playing was lucid and elegant, he was not the titan in Beethoven. His Schubert and Schumann recordings were almost more interesting. His recording of the Schumann Concerto is one of the best I know, yet it is never mentioned in selective comparisons. His clear sound is not very German and in that way, I feel related to his playing.

WB: Could one say there is a German piano school?

CZ: There were pianists like Backhaus or Elly Ney, but it is difficult to say what they have in common. But when it comes to work discipline or a certain firmness, I do feel at home in this tradition.

WB: Alfred Brendel said, when he was asked why he didn’t play Chopin: “Either you dedicate yourself to play his music, that requires a specific technique, or you play “the other composers”. Would you be the exception to this rule?

CZ: I think he was being polite, in a way he didn’t like Chopin! I played a lot of his music and almost every year, I play his second Piano Concerto. When I started to play a lot Mozart and Schubert, I said to myself: “Put it away, it is disturbing..”. Playing Mozart’s Piano Sonatas is more difficult than Chopin’s Nocturnes! However I do play Chopin again now and it is beautiful!

WB: You studied with Vlado Perlemuter, could we therefore say that you are also (partly) a “French pianist”?

CZ: He was not only French, but also Polish and jewish.

WB: How was he as a teacher?

CZ: He was a very demanding teacher. I still have a score of Beethoven ‘s Piano Concerto nr 5 with all of his comments. He could be incredibly picky when your tempi were not correct.

WB: He was not as famous as Arrau, Kempff or Backhaus though?

CZ: He was very respected in England or Italy, but you are right, he was only known locally. His playing was unaffected yet strong. My first record was Perlemuter playing Chopin. I remember several of the pieces: the F-minor Fantasy, the second scherzo, the berceuse. It was nor dry nor too elegant, it was exactly “in the middle”.

WB: Have you benefitted from the fact that he knew Ravel well?

CZ: We spoke a little about it, but not very often.

WB: Do you remember examples?

CZ: Yes, for instance in the Sonatine. He showed me his tricks there and told me that Ravel always said: “Cela, c’est votre cuisine” (That is your business, WB), it is important though how it sounds after all!

WB: I spoke to your colleague Louis Lortie and he said that Perlemuter played Ravel and Chopin equally well, which seems to be rare. Is it indeed that rare?

CZ: That’s correct, Ravel and Chopin are two different worlds! His Chopin spoke to the heart, it was clear, not unromantic. Mozart was not far away.

WB: Do you mean Perlemuters Mozart and Chopin?

CZ: Yes, indeed.

WB: You won the Ravel Competition in 1975 in Paris, nonetheless I cannot remember you playing him very often, is that correct?

CZ: The stupid thing is that people only know my CD’s, I performed all his piano works and both concertos. There should even be a recording from 1976 of the G-major Concerto with Celibidache!

WB: He was very critical, wasn’t he?

CZ: Yes, it was almost sickening!

WB: Did he ask you to play with him?

CZ: Yes, it was after the Ravel Competition, he was asked: “Wouldn’t you like to play with the winner?” He rehearsed like mad and once, when we didn’t agree about something, the last comment he could think of was: “Michelangeli played it like this”. Well, the comparison is not too bad (laughs).

WB: Can you remember the orchestra?

CZ: It was the Südfunk Symphonie Orchester Stuttgart.

WB: I’d like to ask you a few questions about Scarlatti now. I find your recordings of his music fabulous. How did you get to know his music?

CZ: (remembers): There was a musician in the orchestra (Residentie Orkest, WB) who came to see me with the first Scarlatti recording, it was so sweet. I must have been 14 or 15. My father had a recording by Lipatti with some sonatas. Michelangeli also played a few and I heard the recording by Horowitz, who took Scarlatti very seriously, it was the first time that a musician made an all-Scarlatti recording.

WB: Can we say that his music is often misunderstood in the sense that his sonatas are only played as encores or as a starter?

CZ: Exactly, he is not taken as seriously as Bach or Händel, whereas his music is first class! I once played an all-Scarlatti recital at La Roque d’Anthéron, it was one of these programmes that René Martin loved! In my forthcoming recitals, I will play 7 sonatas by Scarlatti, combined to some Soler Sonatas and a French Suite by Bach. So yes, his music will feature in my concerts again.

WB: What exactly makes his music so genius?

CZ: That’s the main theme of music! Great geniuses write less than you expect, they limit themselves. Scarlatti wrote sonatas in two movements, but sometimes, something strange or unexpected happens, for instance these irregularities: 3 … (tact), 3…., 5 t…. You wouldn’t encounter this in Galuppi’s music. With Scarlatti, the surprises occur occasionally, he knows what music needs in itself.

WB: Are all of his sonatas suited for the piano?

CZ: No, there are very clearly sonatas you should only play on the harpsichord, I could not make them work on a modern piano. There are a few I do not play.

WB: How did you come to your selection from the 555 sonatas?

CZ: There are a few pianists who inspired me. I selected my own pairs, not always according to the way Kirkpatrick suggested. I discovered again a few sonatas I did not know yet. It also happens that I play a sonata I know and think: “This is amazing!”.

WB: There is also a recording of yours on which you play around 20 times the same sonata. Was that your idea?

CZ: It has to do with a different form of art. I often played that sonata in the 70s as an encore and I found at least 20 recordings from all over the world. That piece has accompanied during my entire life. The CD shows the impossibility of a definite performance, but something happens internally.

WB: Could we say that Scarlatti is a genius since he can say so much with so few notes, just like Mozart?

CZ: Yes, it is the same with all great composers! One thinks: “These notes are absolutely necessary.” They don’t write more nor less than necessary.

WB: What is the style of Scarlatti like?

CZ: It is terribly difficult to describe this! I gave lectures about “Why does Schubert sound like Schubert?” I think it becomes increasingly easy to describe “style” after Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann. Scarlatti marks the start of harmony. The way he perceives time is different from Bach’s. I have a feeling of urgency: “It has to be this long (it has to last so long?). The Spanish source is undeniable, nobody writes Malagenia-basses like he does.

WB: Scarlatti sounds sometimes like Schumann..

CZ: Yes, the feeling of being ahead of his time and “empfindsame Musik” is more typical of Scarlatti than of Bach.

WB: What do you think of the Soler sonatas?

CZ: There a few master works, there are real “hits”!

WB: Then a few questions re Mozart, is his music good for your technique?

CZ: It is very demanding. He wrote to his father re his concertos K 450 and 451: “They will make the pianist perspire” and that is still the case. You really have to work hard to play them well. In K 451 and 456, there are some very fast tempi.

WB: Do you have favourites among the Mozart concertos?

CZ: Yes, a few: K 238 is seldom played, but it is a remarkable composition, I love K 453, 456 and 459 very much, K 488 that I will play in Den Haag is unique in music history.

WB: I also spoke with a few fortepianists, like Andreas Staier and Kristian Bezuidenhout and the latter told me whenever he plays Mozart on a Steinway grand (which he occasionally does) that he has the feeling to walk on eggshells. Do you never have that feeling?

CZ: I have a lot of respect for Staier! His Scarlatti recordings are amazing too, but no, I feel very much at home on a Steinway, it is my instrument.

WB: You never need to be overly careful?

CZ: No, I play with real orchestras sometimes with 12 violins. Because of this, you have to play with enough power without becoming harsh, you really have to make an effort!

WB: Your first recordings of the complete cycle was with several conductors, why didn’t you record all of them with the same conductor?

CZ: It started with the Polnish Chamber Orchestra, but there were concertos that I could not play with them (since they required a bigger orchestra, WB). David Zinman was a fantastic partner, one of the best I have ever had and also Wand was a great collaborator. Of course, I already knew Sir Neville Marriner from the Academy of St Martin in the Fields.

WB: Is that the reason that you have re-recorded the cycle later, both as conductor and soloist?

CZ: Some of the orchestras with whom I worked were not so great, they sounded more like Schubert. In Lausanne, everything was right and sounded natural. We didn’t rush things, it took us 12 years to record all the concertos.

WB: You sometimes play non-legato, where a lot of your colleagues play legato, for instance in the first movement of K 453, the first entry of the piano. Is that what Mozart wrote down in the score?

CZ: That is very interesting, I could swear that Mozart did not write legato. Too bad I do not have the score with me. The violins play non-legato. I find the theme of the first movement difficult to understand and slightly odd. (*)

WB: The end of the G-major concerto is genius!

CZ: So is the 2nd movement, it becomes more and more interesting towards the end, but it starts with nothing. The first entry of the piano really irritates me, it is the worst start of all Mozart’s concertos!

WB: I can understand what you mean and have the same feeling with the slow movement of K 482. It starts beautifully but after approximately five minutes, you get these endless trills…

CZ: You have the right to ask:”What is he doing now?” With the menuet in the last movement of K 482, he wanted to repeat the Jeunehomme concerto, but it turned out a bit mediocre whereas the Jeunehomme concerto was fantastic!

WB: How do you see his last concerto?

CZ: I love it very much. Mozart is not so active any more in this concerto, it reminds me of Schubert. The start of the first movement is unique.

WB: Didn’t he do the same in the G-minor symphony?

CZ: With K 595 it is a full beat, not an upbeat like in K 550!

WB: How would you call the overall atmosphere in this concerto: sunny? Bitter? Resigned?

CZ: He didn’t know that this was supposed to be his last concerto, but it sounds more like the Zauberflöte than like Die Entführung aus dem Serail. Mozart did not need to show that much anymore, but the light that emanates from this music is incredible.

WB: Don’t you like the first four concertos?

CZ: No, these are transcriptions, the first concerto for me is K 175.

WB: You said about Beethoven that he was less modest than Mozart: “Here I am!”, does that disturb you?

CZ: No, it is funny, especially when you do the same as a conductor (laughs). I have not played all of his piano sonatas, I have performed all of the piano trios and violin sonatas though. There are piano sonatas I do not play, since I either don’t like them or cannot play them. At the moment I play opus 26, which I love, it really suits Schubert’s Moments Musicaux and Schumann’s Kreisleriana well. And at the end of the same recital programme, I play opus 14/2. Nobody does that, but it works really well, especially at the end of your concert. It fades away in a very peaceful way…

WB: You once called Bach’s Wohltempariertes Klavier a “horrible work”?

CZ: You cannot say that of course, but it shouldn’t be played through like an encyclopaedia or a dictionary. I still stick to that opinion.

WB: What do you have against fugues?

CZ: Apparently, I have something against them when I play them! “Selection “ or “Choice” is part of our job; we can love something and sometimes it can also happen that we do not love something. The Preludes though are among my dearest pieces, I consider my recordings of Bach Preludes as my best one, but unfortunately nobody ever mentions it. Radu Lupu told me he had never heard the E-flat Prelude played better. You know, Bach gave his son Willem Friedemann only Preludes, no Fugues! (laughs)

WB: Do you think that Bach can be played on a modern piano?

CZ: I suppose so, but sometimes I prefer to hear his music played on a cembalo, rather than Scarlatti’s music.

WB: You are a sensitive pianist and sometimes there are these little “surprises” in your recordings, for instance in the Bach recording you just mentioned, where you played the last chord in one of these Preludes on the organ..

CZ: I always think of the organ there, since it was originally written for organ.

WB: And in your Mozart cadenzas, there are surprises too!

CZ: But Mozart’s music is full of surprises, it is theatre! All cadenzas that were written after he died (e.g. Hummel), are failures, Mozart would never write in a different key, ever! And sometimes I write for other instruments in my cadenzas, but Mozart did the same: in his Konzertone for two violins, he introduced the oboe!

WB: Could it also be your sense of humour?

CZ: It was meant to be serious, not funny.

WB: And in Soler’s Fandango, where you clapped your hands?

CZ: That’s what was missing! Soler is Spanish after all and your hear the sound of people clapping their hands really often in Spain!

WB: I saw in your repertoire list that you also play the Third Piano Concerto by Prokofiev, how often have you played that?

CZ: That is long ago, it was after the Van Cliburn Competition. I also played Rachmaninov’s Rhapsody at the time and it was a challenge, but now I ask myself: “What can I play?” and “For which music do I have time?”

WB: What about the Liszt sonata?

CZ: I have played it and I even studied it again, but nowadays 80% of my concerts are as a conductor. Playing the piano is an incredible effort. I still play both Brahms Concertos and Chopin’s Second Concerto, but with certain pieces I think: “This is not necessary anymore.”

WB: Why did you take up conducting?

CZ: I wasn’t so happy anymore to sit in front of my piano alone.. Dimensions are bigger with an orchestra, it has nothing to do with one single instrument anymore, when the members of the orchestra play.

WB: You were not bored with the piano like your colleague Ashkenazy?

CZ: No, I wanted to extend my musical horizon, just the piano was getting a little limited.

WB: Does that mean that you practise less than before?

CZ: I have to pull myself together and have to know exactly when I practise. I need two or three hours every day and five hours when a recital is coming up. That also means that I no longer play certain pieces like the Liszt Sonata or the Diabelli Variations.

WB: Just a question re reviews, the French critic Alain Lompech once wrote about your Mozart Sonatas: :“il rappelle ces enfants ou ces amis que l’on voit arriver avec joie et partir avec soulagement jusqu’à leur prochaine visite et dont plus tard on ne garde que de bons souvenirs »(He reminds us of those children you love to see coming with joy and you love to see leaving with a feeling of relief until their next visit and of whom you keep only good memories after all). What do you think of this?

CZ: Thank god, I don’t read most reviews, it is pointless. Bad reviews are at least a source of irritation. I do ask myself often: “What does he want?” or “What difference does it make?” Sometimes I am really devastated by what they write. In my orchestra, the best listeners are sitting in front of me! It is a shame that critics never attend rehearsals and do not know about all the hard work we have done..

WB: Would you truly like them to come to your rehearsals?

CZ: I wouldn’t have anything against it, in fact the rehearsal is the most interesting moment!

WB: A last question: some time ago I saw a film on Youtube in which you played a Haydn concerto and in the audience a mobile phone went off…

CZ: Finally I am getting famous for not playing (laughs).. I didn’t scream, I only said: “Do not pick up the phone!” I hate to have to interrupt what I am doing or to have to tell the orchestra: “Let’s start again at beat ..”. I was lucky though, since I was just playing the cadenza.

WB: But didn’t you completely lose your concentration?

CZ: Yes, but that’s what I am a performer for: the worst thing is to have to stop in the middle. It was also a training in anger management.

(*) When Cristian Zacharias re-read the text of the interview, he wrote the following comment re this question: I play it exactly the way it was written in the score.

Details: Written by: Willem Boone

Arnhem, 24 September 2005

Cristina Ortiz is a very temperamental lady at the keyboard, and she is almost as lively during an interview. She is not afraid of challenges; in September 2005, she played the 2nd Piano Concerto by Brahms five times with the Gelders Orkest (The Arnhem Philharmonic Orchestra).

The day of the interview, 24 September, she comes from a rehearsal and puts the score of Chôros 11 by Villa Lobos on the table, “It’s so complex.. It’s a huge piece for orchestra with a little part for the piano (smiles). I will play this three times in São Paulo in November and in February 2006, I will make a recording of it”. She shows the score, it was dedicated to Artur Rubinstein. “Do you think he played it? I don’t think so”.

Willem Boone (WB): Was Villa Lobos a good pianist?

Cristina Ortiz (CO): I have no idea, I don’t think so, although he wrote very well for piano. I haven’t heard much about his piano playing, he was a cellist. I made a recording for Intrada France, which has just been released. On this CD, there are works from five Brazilian composers, of which Villa Lobos is best known. I couldn’t enclose everything I wanted. The others are Lorenzo Fernandez, the founder of the Brazilian Conservatoire, who wrote a lot of obligatory pieces. Then there is Mozart Camargo Guarneri (“He had a brother called Donizetti Guarneri”) , who wrote a wonderful collection of Preludes, 50 Ponteios. Alberto Nepomuceno wrote some very sad music, it could be Brahms’s Intermezzi. The fourth composer is Fructuoso Vianna. I met him when I was 12 years old. He dedicated a piece to me, which is very close to Schumann. It’s called Schumanianna. The disc is out now, it’s fantastic. I played these pieces in Hong Kong and the record was selling like hot cakes.

WB: The husband of the famous Brazilian pianist Guiomar Novaes, Pinto, composed some nice music for piano too, didn’t he?

CO: I never had the chance to look into his music. This recording wasn’t meant to be a real potpourri. It should be an imprint of my favourite five composers.

WB: You also played all of the piano concertos of Villa Lobos..

CO: Yes, that’s correct. Now I will record Chôros 11 for BIS with the Orchestra Sinfonica of State of São Paulo under John Neschling. We will play in a new hall, the Sala São Paulo, which used to be a former train station! It sounds wonderful. I am really looking forward to that.

WB: Will you be playing by heart?

CO: No, I don’t think so, it lasts for 65 minutes!

WB: Compared to that, Brahms’s 2nd Concerto is nothing!

CO (smiles) Chôros means “improvisations”, every few pages, there is a completely different atmosphere. A friend of mine said: “In that piece, there is stuff for six pieces!”. It will be a challenge. You need a lot of rehearsals for it.

WB: Will you also play it in Europe?

CO: I would like to do that. Maybe Ashkenazy would like to look into it, but let’s first learn it....

WB: Is there a chance you can play it in London? Or is too conservative?

CO: Didn’t you know that? In this piece, there should be no egos. That makes it really hard. Villa Lobos is like a mission to me. Often conductors have no time to properly rehearse his piano concertos and I don’t want to play like that. It’s different from Beethoven or Schumann, with their concertos, it wouldn’t “hurt”if you play with little rehearsal time. The trouble with Villa Lobos is that he wrote so much. He was just happy to have it recorded and never went back to his scores. A lot of them remained untouched.

WB: Is this the first time you play Brahms’s 2nd concerto?

CO: No, I did it before, but it is a fantastic chance to play it five times around. It’s like a marathon. I did a performance not long ago with Lawrence Foster and the Gulbenkian Orchestra in Sintra, Portugal, last June, too bad that we did only one concert...

WB: Tonight you will play the concerto in Rotterdam and tomorrow you will play during an afternoon concert in Nijmegen, isn’t it terribly hard to have so little time in between? You hardly have time to recover!

CO: It’s tough, and I just arrived from Hong Kong, could you imagine? It’s all about distributing energy. That’s what Ashkenazy always says. It’s difficult though to save as a performer. This concerto is also about the distribution of the hands, you have to get the top two fingers of the right hand across to make them sing. My hands are quite sore today (She indeed shook hands with her left hand when we met)

WB: Maybe this is a forward question, am I being sexistic when I say that this is not really a concerto for women?

CO: Yes, you are.. but it’s true, there are not many women who have tackled the piece. Even Clara Schumann said to Brahms: “Why are you writing such heavy stuff?”. It’s all about stamina and sheer power. It’s difficult to find a balance. This is even more than the first concerto an orchestral piece. Number one is a real piano concerto.. Especially in the second, you need to have a really good rapport with the chef for the andante. The pace is important. It can get very slow, like last night.

WB: Was it too slow?

CO: Yes, it was. I never had a conductor who was so far away from the piano. I need physical contact.

WB: Did you tell the conductor? (Nikolai Alexeev)

CO: No, he said himself he would be better tonight

WB: Yes, indeed, I noticed after your first entry you looked into the orchestra, almost as if you wanted to conduct yourself. Are you aware of what happens around you?

CO: Yes, totally, I am playing with the others. When I am performing, I am singing what the others are playing. I know exactly what comes out of the orchestra. Playing a concerto is playing chamber music in great scale. But how can I have contact with someone who is so far away? It’s very hard work and the piece is already hard. Music has to live, otherwise it is a recording. I am a performer, there is nothing so exciting as when it works!

WB: Which conductor would be ideal in that respect?

CO: Lawrence Foster.. Ashkenazy too. He is with the player and can do anything on the spot. I remember we once did a Brahms 2nd with very little rehearsal time..

WB: Does it help that he is pianist too?

CO: Yes, although he has to adapt sometimes. He has to erase his own conception from his memory with pieces he has done himself, like the Rachmaninov concertos he has done all his life.. It happens that he asks in rehearsal: “Could you play that again?” just to listen well to what I was doing.

WB: I read in your biography that you also worked with Kyrill Kondrashin. How was he?

CO: He was fabulous. I played 3 concertos with him; Liszt 2nd, Bartok 3rd and the Schumann. When we did the Bartok 3rd, he first wanted me to come to his room and play the entire concerto. He listened to what I was doing. The same happened during the orchestral rehearsal. The contact during the concert performance was unbelievable. He had never done it before. He had the same thorough way of rehearsing with the two other pieces we did together. That is commitment, that is a musician. It is quite a difference with Alexeev, who rehearsed during 20 minutes and then left.

WB: Do you go to concerts yourself to listen to others?

CO: Yes, I do that a lot, I don’t only go to recitals. You learn a lot from it.

WB: What about you as a performer? Are you unpredictable in concerts when you play with an orchestra and is it difficult to keep up with you?

CO: I am not predictable. I have to ask conductors to stay with me, because I don’t know what I am doing on stage. I play from what comes back to me. You also have to play with the acoustics. Amsterdam is my favourite hall, I like space. Nijmegen is very good too, but here (Arnhem) the piano didn’t help. I suffered, as it was out of tune.

WB: I have been to concerts a lot in Arnhem, where I lived when I was young and the pianos were often bad.

CO: It has nothing to do with the piano, it’s the tuner! In the USA, there are living creatures who look after a piano and they are tuning all day long! A piano needs constant looking after and fine tuning, just like a car! They are not only tuning the pitch, as they do in Europe!

WB: But then again, even if they have such good looking after in the USA, colleagues of yours like Daniel Barenboim, Martha Argerich and Peter Frankl have complained about the bad American Steinways! So what’s the difference if the pianos are still bad?

CO: I hate American Steinways! I never quite made a career in America. I don’t have a technique to show off and play bravoura pieces like the Liszt sonata. Not that I make that many mistakes but I am not there to impress. I make my own music, no amazing pirouettes. But you know, Julius Kätchen used to say: “There are no bad pianos, there are only bad pianists!”.It’s not true, but still, a good technician can save an instrument!

WB: Have you ever considered touring around with your own piano?

CO: I have fantastic pianos at home. 3 years ago, I bought a beautiful one from 1991. I had to put it in a friend’s house until I had space in my own place. I once played on it in the Queen Elizabeth Hall, but apart from that, I don’t go to extremes, I don’t like to have it removed and taken out of the window every time...

WB: Could you adapt to any piano?

CO: No, but sometimes I make the best out of it. Once, I played with Leinsdorf and the New York Philharmonic Orchestra on a piano that wasn’t very good. Still, I hadn’t complained about it, but he said: “You need another piano, this one is really rubbish!” and then I ran down to Steinway Hall to choose another one.

Quite unbelievably, an hour flew by, I still had many other questions, but unfortunately, Cristina Ortiz had to go. The day after, I saw her by coincidence at the concert Earl Wild gave at almost 90 at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. (She emailed me the next day remembering how touching the concert had been and asking herself whether she’d still be playing at age 90..) She said we should finish the interview one day, either in London or elsewhere. .. Let’s hope we will be able to finish our conversation soon!

© Willem Boone 2005

Details: Written by: Willem Boone

Amsterdam, 6 August 2002

WB (=Willem Boone): You are known, among other things, for your recordings of the complete Beethoven Symphonies transcribed by Liszt. How did you proceed to play a symphony on a piano? Did you try to imitate the colours of wind instruments and strings for example?

Willem Boone (WB): How did the rehearsal of Tschaikofsky’s First Piano Concerto go?

Dmitri Alexeev (DA): Quite nice!

WB: Were you on the same wavelength as the conductor, Nikolai Alexeev (they are not related, WB)?

DA: I would say so. We often played together, at the end of last season we performed Brahms’s First Piano Concerto.

WB: Do you have any idea how often you have played the First Tschaikofsky Concerto?

DA: It’s difficult to say, sometimes I perform it a lot, sometimes less.

WB: It is for sure one of the most popular concertos of the repertoire, yet I have the impression that it is often considered as a tool to display virtuosity. Could one say that it is misunderstood?

DA: Yes and this is not what music should be about. Virtuosic display is something secondary.

WB: Even with a composer like Liszt?

DA: Yes, definitely. He was a great composer, he used virtuosity to compose great music, even though there are sometimes a lot of notes. He was very talented.

WB: So, if Tschaikofsky 1st is not about virtuosity, what is it about according to you?

DA: There are a lot of lyrical and epical moments. It is a very difficult concerto and its writing is often unpianistic. I understand why Rubinstein found it difficult. Tschaikofsky’s music is often perceived as “sad’ and “depressed”, not so in the First Concerto. It’s the opposite of dark.

WB: Could you give examples of unpianistic writing?

DA: There are quite a lot of examples in all three movements, although I don’t know exactly in which bars they occur. I am not criticizing Tschaikofsky, for it is a great piece, but he didn’t write well for the piano. Every great soloist makes slight adjustments in this score. Rachmaninov was told to play this concerto in a slightly different way too, but you need the talent of Rachmaninov to do so!

WB: Is Rachmaninov’s writing more pianistic?

DA: Yes, definitely!

WB: Tschaikofsky was not known as a good pianist, how come he was able to write in such a virtuosic style?

DA: He wasn’t a violinist either, yet he wrote a wonderful violin concerto! He wasn’t a cellist either and his Rococo Variations are fantastic. Nor was he a woodwind player, yet he composed great symphonies. He was simply a fantastic composer and he knew what he was doing, that’s what counts.

WB: I once heard Lazar Berman play the original version of this score and it started with arpeggios instead of chords..

DA: Yes, he wrote arpeggios indeed and he wrote mezzo piano in the score, even though everybody plays them forte. I must say I prefer the way it’s played nowadays. You know, music leads its own life once a composer has finished a composition…

WB: Nikita Magaloff once said he regretted the first waltz theme – the tune that everybody knows – doesn’t come back later, what do you think of his assessment?

DA: For me, it does not sound like a waltz, but yes, it is strange that the most memorable moments do not come back later..

WB: This concerto has often been called “typically Russian”, do you agree? What are the “Russian” elements?

DA: I would say so. There is a lot of Russian, even Ukrainian folk music. Tschaikofsky had friends in the Ukraine. There are examples in the first movement, for instance, the beginning of the main subject, also the beginning of the finale, which is quite a well-known tune.

WB: Did you hear Van Cliburn when he won the Tschaikofsky Competition in 1958? I was told that many Russians were shocked that a non-Russian pianist won the first prize, what made his playing so memorable?

DA: Yes, I am lucky enough to tell you that I heard him and no, they were not upset that Van Cliburn won. It was an absolute sensation, something I will never forget. It is unfortunate that his further career did not develop the way it could have. People were absolutely ecstatic about his playing. Maybe the official authorities were upset, but otherwise everybody loved him. His interpretation was “different”, but then again, every great performance is “different.” Strangely enough, he was more “Russian” than most Russian pianists!

WB: In what way?

DA: In every way. We had the feeling that he belonged to us!

WB: Isn’t that the ultimate compliment for a non-Russian pianist?

DA: Absolutely!

WB: Did John Ogdon create a similar sensation in 1962?

DA: He was very different, although he too was an absolute genius. He was a fantastic musician too, but in a very different way, he had an intellectual approach to the music. It is very sad how his career ended…

WB: Can you understand that Ogdon and Ashkenazy were joint winners in 1962?

DA: They both were outstanding pianists and musicians, both in their own way. So it was not a surprise that the jury decided to have a joined First Prize.

WB: Do you also play Tschaikofsky’s Second Concerto?

DA: Yes, I do, I played it in Arnhem a few years ago.

WB: It is often considered as “weak” opposed to the First Concerto…

DA: No, it is a different concerto, but it is not “weak”. Actually, Tschaikofsky preferred it to the First Concerto, he complained in a letter: “Why does everybody like the First Concerto and not the second?” All in all, I must say I prefer the First Concerto too, but there are a lot of great moments in the first and third movements, the second movement is very beautiful, it sounds like a piano trio.

WB: Do you play it in the original version?

DA: Yes, I do.

WB: What do you think of Tschaikofsky’s solo piano works?

DA: He left a lot of piano works, I play some of them. Maybe I do not like everything, Tschaikofsky was a workaholic who wrote music every day. Not all of it is equally good, but on the whole they are worth exploring.

WB: You recorded all of Scriabin’s piano sonatas, were you asked to record these?

DA: Yes, I was and I gladly accepted. He is one of my favourite composers and I play his music often.

WB: How often do you get the opportunity to play his Sixth and Eighth sonatas for instance?

DA: I never played these two sonatas live to be honest, but I played many other pieces of his. These two sonatas are very unusual music, especially number eight is a total enigma. I was very happy to learn it, though, since I got acquainted with another world, which was very important for me.

WB: In the early sonatas the influence of Chopin is perceptible, is there anything the later sonatas have in common?

DA: In the earlier sonatas, there is some influence from Liszt too, but for the late sonatas, I would say there is not really something they have in common, no. His development was very fast, but the roots of the late works are still in his early music. He did not develop the same way as Strawinsky, who turned to neo-classical music later in his life. In Scriabin’s late works the influence of Wagner is present too, the harmonies are Wagnerian, although there are no quotations from his music.

WB: Could one say that Scriabin’s style evolved like Beethoven’s?

DA: I cannot compare, they are so different!

WB: Scriabin died young, at the end of his life he experimented with colours and sounds. Do you have any idea how his style could have evolved had he not died?

DA: Nobody knows.. His death was mysterious, people say he died because he went too far and God stopped him..

WB: Vladimir Ashkenazy once said the most difficult Scriabin was even more difficult than Islamey, is that true?

DA: Yes, that is correct.

WB: What would you consider his most difficult work?

DA: Difficult to say, the Sixth sonata is very tricky and some of his Studies are very difficult too.

WB: Vladimir Sofronitzky has been hailed for his extraordinary Scriabin, how do you rate him in this composer?

DA: I agree, he was a genius in the history of piano playing. His world was very close to Scriabin’s life, he married his daughter. I never heard him play live unfortunately.

WB: Didn’t Sofronitzky die very young too?

DA: He was sixty I believe.

WB: And what do you think of Vladimir Horowitz in Scriabin?

DA: I like him very much, but needless to say, nobody is perfect. Sofronitzky was sometimes uneven and so was Horowitz. His video of Vers la flame is fantastic!

WB: Why is the Ninth Sonata called “Black mass”?

DA: Scriabin did not add the title, he referred to it in his letters.

WB: You made a beautiful recording of Rachmaninov’s Preludes, we have the advantage of having CDs with Rachmaninov’s playing. Would you take him as the reference?

DA: Yes, I do.

WB: He tended to play rather fast, what do you think of his tempi?

DA: First of all, it was a different time. Sometimes for us, they may seem strange, but fashion changes. It’s as if you are reading a book about the 18th century, times and characters were different. Of course, he was one of the greatest pianists.

WB: I have the feeling that his music is often misunderstood, even more so than Tschaikofsky’s. I think it is even worse, it’s often sentimentalized. How do you “desentimentalize” his music?

DA: I agree with you, and yes, it is difficult to take away the sentimentality (smiles).I do not know how to do that, but his music should not be sentimental. People mix up the notion of “emotional” and “sentimental” or they play his music in a very dry way.

WB: What do you emphasize in your interpretations of Rachmaninov: its strength or its nostalgia?

DA: That’s difficult to say, I try to express everything I know and I feel in his music and everything he put inside his music. I want to recreate what is written in the score.

WB: Was he as exact in his markings as Ravel?

DA: He was precise enough. His music has a strong improvisatory character though. Even when you play what is written, there are traces of improvisation. His markings are sometimes sort of loose, I experience the same with Chopin’s music.

WB: You won the Leeds competition in 1975, how big was the culture shock when you first played in the UK?

DA: It was a culture shock, yes, although I had played a couple of times in the West before. It was the greatest competition I won and it had a great impact. Maybe the 1975 edition was the greatest, because Uchida came second, Schiff third and Myung Whun Chung fourth!

WB: Your colleague Bella Davidovich said people noticed her playing had become freer after she had moved to the West, did you notice something similar?

DA: I understand her point of view, but she immigrated to the United States, I never did that. Since the 90’s, I was sharing my time between London and Moscow. Of course, the overall (musical) atmosphere between both cities is very different!

WB: Do you teach?

DA: I never did, but I started a few years ago and I like it.

WB: If a student plays for you, what do you mostly pay attention to?

DA: It should be a complex of features: musicality, technique, sound, but the most important aspect is personality..

WB: You have carte blanche in Arnhem for several concerts this season, did you know right away what you wanted to choose or were some of the combinations put together for the occasion?

DA: Basically, I knew what I wanted to do, since I did similar projects in the UK. I also play chamber music on a regular basis.

WB: Next month, you will play orchestral scores by Shostakovitsj with Nikolai Demidenko, are these original transcriptions by the composer?

DA: No, they are my own. The programme will consist mostly of my transcriptions of suites for jazz orchestra and of Porgy and Bess by Gerschwin.

WB: Are you happy as a musician?

DA: Yes, I am, sometimes, I am not, but it is a wonderful world, full of great composers that I am happy to explore.

WB: What do you consider highlights in your career?

DA: There are quite a few, I would not say that there is “one” in particular. The Leeds Competition obviously was a major achievement, I also remember concerts at Carnegie Hall, the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. I remember performances in Philadelphia with Muti that were very memorable and something I will never forget: I had to play Beethoven Third Concerto in Russia and I was told that Emil Gilels would attend. I was shivering! Gilels was sometimes strange: he wouldn’t talk to people and ask for a ticket, he paid his own. When he was asked by musicians of the orchestra whether he liked my playing, he put up his thumbs, that was the greatest praise!

WB: Do you also have regrets?

DA: Yes, a lot! There is a lot of music that I should have played or recorded, maybe I will do so in the future..

WB: If you were to do it again, would you be a pianist again?

DA: Who knows? I know what I cannot be: physics or mathematics are not my world. It would have to be arts, literature or humanitarian things..

WB: How do you find the discipline to practise?

DA: If you love music, you should do honour to the music, and therefore, you should practise the best you can!

WB: How long can you stay away from the piano without practicing?

DA: Approximately ten days, maybe a couple of weeks.

WB: You are not like Martha Argerich who is rumoured to sometimes stay away one month from the piano?

DA: No, I don’t stay away that long from the instrument.

Details: Written by: Willem Boone

Utrecht, 24 October 2003

Although he won a major piano competition (Marguérite Long/Jacques Thibaud) in Paris in 1955, Dmitri Bashkirov is probably not best known as a concert pianist.. He suffered from the severe Soviet regime and was not allowed to travel abroad until the early 90’s. However, in the meantime, he gave many concerts in his native Russia and built a solid reputation as a teacher, who trained many famous, sometimes internationally acclaimed pianists such as Arcadi Volodos, Nikolai Demidenko and Jonathan Gilad. He currently teaches at the Queen Sofia Academy in Madrid.

Willem Boone (WB): Concerning tonight’s programme, how do you “compose”a recital?

Elena Kushnerova (EK): It is difficult to compose a recital programme if it is not to be a single composer programme, sometimes I really suffer from it. I try to set up a diverse yet coherent programme, thus it is important to find relations between separate works concerning their keys, moods, etc. It should be a constellation of known and lesser known pieces. In Germany at least part of a recital is desired to be Russian, I understand why it happens.

WB: Is the current programme purely your choice or have you been asked to play certain pieces?

EK: Loic requested that I play the 7th Sonata by Prokofiev or Pétrouchka, works by Moussorgsky as less known, one contemporary piece (Lokshin), besides he wished both books of the Paganini Variations! I said that both books would have been too much. In general, the first part of the recital had to be “normal”, that is, consisting of German works (e.g Beethoven or Brahms) since I live there now.
That’s why I play both of them during tonight’s recital. I start with variations by Beethoven on a theme by Salieri that are seldom performed. I used to play them when I was young and at that time, I found them very easy. Now I realize that it is not so. The Fantasies opus 116 by Brahms are well known, yet rarely played. I recently recorded them in Munich and now I understand why relatively few pianists play them in concert. Contrary to the Paganini Variations, they do not call for a particularly virtuoso technique. These are very profound pieces that request a lot of strength and depth from a performer and are not easy for a listener. Actually, I am almost exhausted after opus 116 and I start playing the Paganini Variations afterwards with relief! However, I do ask myself why so few pianists play these pieces, they are so beautiful!

WB: Are there nowadays compositions you can’t play, because they are not accepted? Claudio Arrau said something very interesting in the book “Conversations with Arrau”by Joseph Horowitz, for instance that the Schumann Concerto in the 1930’s or 40’s meant “suicide”

EK: Yes, a lot of musis is not being accepted. You wil be amazed to learn that it is even difficult to play Bach in Germany! Once when I wanted to play a French Suite, I was told his music “belongs in a church” or that it is “too serious’, “too difficult to listen to” or “It’s no real music”. This happens everywhere in Germany. Only twice, in Baden Baden in 2000 and during the Bach Festival in Ansbach in 2001, I finally got the chance to play Bach in recitals! I have suggested more than once the Variations Brillantes by Glinka, but mostly people reply they don’t want to hear it, because they don’t know it. Well, I have already managed to insert this work into a couple of programmes. In 2004, the 200-year Glinka’s anniversary will be celebrated, so I expect to be able to play it more. As far as Russian music is concerned, Mussorgsky and Rachmaninov are usually accepted, Prokofiev not always and Scriabin even less.

WB: Are you often asked to play Russian works? Is it kind of a specialty of yours?

EK: I understand that concert organizers expect Russian repertoire from me, why should I play Beethoven when I am Russian? We actually play relatively little Russian music during our training in Russia, I played more Bach, Beethoven and Schumann. For instance, it was in Europe where I played Tschaikofsky’s complete cycle The Seasons, not in Russia.

WB: Are the Paganini Variations among the most difficult works in the repertoire?

EK: Sure! There are many difficult works but this is definitely one of them. The 2nd book that I play tonight is easier for me than the 1st one.
My hands are not big enough to play sixths with the left hand in the first book confortably. But I played it on this year’s Japan tour and listeners did not notice it anyway! In Pétrouchka, there are passages that are almost impossible to play, it is more difficult for me than the Paganini Variations!

WB: You will play piano works by Mussorgsky tonight, has he written many pieces other than the Pictures?

EK: I recorded 14 piano compositions, i.e all his original pieces for piano. Mussorgsky left a lot of music unfinished, not only for piano, but also orchestral scores, some of which were completed by Rimsky Korsakov. Rachmaninov has transcribed Gopak, but the original version is better! I have never heard the pieces I’ll play tonight to be performed even in Russia, not to speak about Europe.

WB: It has been said that Mussorgsky’s piano works are unpianistic, is that true?

EK: Yes, that’s correct! They are very unconfortable and not well written for the piano, unlike Chopin and Liszt. His music is also difficult to memorize, but it has a lot of charm.

WB: Do you know any other works that are unpianistic?

EK: I’d say that Brahms’s 1st Piano Concerto and Franck’s Prélude, Choral and Fugue are not very pianistic either!

WB: What about Dvorak’s Piano Concerto?

EK: I don’t play it, can’t comment on that.

WB: Concerning the work of Lokshin that has been dedicated to you, how does it work when a composer writes especially for you, can you more or less request what you “want’?

EK: No, it was the other way around. He was a very good pianist and he happened to know me.He heard me play Liszt’s Feux Follets. Although, it is one of the most taxing pieces, I have an affinity to it. Lokshin used technical patterns from Feux Follets, e.g double notes. He also liked my interpretation of Reflets dans l’eau. I didn’t give him a brief, I only said: “I’d like to have some nice music, but please not with wide chords!” (Elena demonstrates excerpts from the Liszt Sonata with chords that exceed her hand span, although she manages to play them correctly!)

WB: Did he speak to you about his progress?

EK: No, he didn’t. It was composed during a few days. I read through the handwritten score and it looked beautiful and very natural. It was impossible to change anything in this music.

WB: Was the piece up against your expectations?

EK: When I received the final version, I was scared and thought: “I won’t be able to play this!”. However, I was already familiar with his symphonies and I noticed that his piano music is also very “logical”and very well written for the instrument. It took me in fact a very short time to learn the music.

WB: How do you rate Pétrouchka: as a wholly pianistic composition or still as ( a transcription of) an orchestral score?

EK: It is definitely a transcription of an orchestral piece and not a pianistic composition. I have always loved to dance and I see the choreography while I play.

WB: What do you think of your colleague Nelson Freire who said: “I don’t like to play it, because it is too percussive, you really have to bang the piano”?

EK: You shouldn’t slam the piano. It is true that Pétrouchka requires a different sound, but it is still “sound” you have to produce! I have often said that Pétrouchka is too difficult and that I won’t play it any longer, but I still do.... I am always very careful while practicing Pétrouchka since it can be very dangerous for the hands. And you know, the audience ‘forgets”the other pieces in a recital if you play Pétrouchka at the end. The same goes for the 7th Sonata by Prokofiev. Once, I gave a recital with Scarlatti Sonatas, Schumann Symphonic Etudes (including the posthumous Etudes), Debussy Pour le Piano, Ravel Pavane, 2 Poemes by Scriabin and I finished with Prokofiev 7th. The audience was only raving about the Prokofiev, it was real “hit”. Sometimes I ask myself: “Why bother to compose a coherent programme if that’s all they remember?”

WB: Forgive me this question, but you are actually the first woman I hear in Pétrouchka, do you think women can play the same repertoire as men?

EK: Nowadays everybody plays Pétrouchka, even Japanese women with tiny hands! But 20 years ago I was the only one! When I studied it, professors said:”Why do you want to play this?”and when they saw I was able to play it, they asked me: “Why do you play it so loudly?”. You need an enormous power, so from that I conclude it is a piece for men. If I were a man, I wouldn’t need so much strength. It is unfair, when you don’t play loud enough, people say: “She can’t play it”. Only a few great pianists, such as Yudina, Hess or Argerich could elevate on the men’s level. They have very distinctive personalities plus a lot of physical strength.

WB: In the biography of yours, I read you are a “Steinway artist”, what does that mean? That you exclusively play on Steinways?

EK: I prefer to play on Steinways. They did me the favour to include me in a list of Steinway artists. It doesn’t mean that I can’t play on other pianos. One of the conditions is to possess a Steinway, which I couldn’t afford until one year ago. They are arranging concert tours and master classes for me in Japan that helps to promote Steinway and compete with Kawai and Yamaha. The cooperation with Steinway is very important for me, because I really need more concerts.

WB: You have your own website, on which MP3’s can be downloaded, do you mind this happens? (opposed to commercially available CD’s?).

EK: Yes, it does bother me, because I don’t like my own recordings.

WB: Do you think classical artists need marketing and active PR?

EK: Big names like Sokolov probably don’t need it, but I don’t have a normal career! Thanks to the internet, I have got this contract in Japan. However, I didn’t want my husband to upload recordings on the web and I wanted him to remove everything...

WB: But you have benefited from it, haven’t you?

EK: Astonishingly, yes!

WB: Who is your favourite pianist?

EK: I don’t have idols and I don’t want to be like anybody. Yet I admire many pianists for different reasons, their affinity to myself playing no role at all! For instance I understand well what Rubinstein is doing and I usually agree with him; with Horowitz, I don’t always understand particularly well what he does and why, still his playing impresses me greatly! With Gould, his approach to Bach is quite similar to mine but I have a hard time understanding his interpretations of other composers. When I heard his Bach for the first time, it almost drove me mad, it was even more extreme than my own Bach playing! Pletniev is one of the relatively new pianists who is outstanding. There is however something strange about him; he has no apparent temperament, but a very strong personality and intellect. His interpretations are original and absolutely different from those of all known great pianists and that makes him great, too. Argerich is another artist whom I understand well. I used to have a tape with her legendary performance of the Liszt Sonata and on the other side mine. Some people who listened to them were unable to tell whether it was Martha or me who played!

She remained an intuitive and impulsive artist and she was celebrated everywhere for her impulsive nature, whereas I was criticized for this during my studies in Russia. I developed under pressure in the direction of a stronger intellectual control, depth and refinement, so that now I differ from Martha.
Gilels was another outstanding pianist with his own distinctive sound.
His interpretations were simple and sincere. He was becoming more and more spiritual every year until his death. I have got the impression that Gilels was simply a medium connected to the sky.

WB: Is there someone with whom you’d love to perform?

EK: Misha Maisky, because I think we could understand well each other. Maybe with Argerich on two pianos... (hesitates), that would be nice! Of the musicians who passed away, I would have loved to play with Menuhin or Heifetz. I love to play chamber music, e.g piano quartets and quintets.

WB: What do you like most about this job?

EK: Nothing.... (laughs). I like the feeling after a concert when it went well. Sometimes, it happens that everything works out the way you want, that is pure happiness! On the other hand, when things don’t work out, I feel horrible afterwards. I really suffer from it during weeks, I can’t sleep... Before a concert, I can feel terrible and ask myself: “Why is someone doing things like this?. I also wonder at times why there are so many musicians, whilst there is no job that is more demanding! I realize that this is different for me, I was programmed to be a musician by my mother, there was no other choice. On the other side, my progress was very fast and easy, I felt a lot of force and talent in me.

WB: My last question is maybe a strange one, but it is something that has always intrigued me, do you “think”something when you are playing?

EK: It varies a lot. It happens that you think of nothing at all, which is probably the best thing, you only feel the music. It also happens that stupid thoughts come to your mind, thoughts that are useless. During a tour, say the 4rth concert, I sometimes don’t think any more, which is not necessarily a good thing. It’s so difficult, because you need to be both very concentrated and very relaxed at the same time!

After the concert, I had the privilege to have dinner with the artist and the organizers of the festival. I can only say, after the discussion I had with Elena, that I feel sorry that her career in Europe hasn’t expanded the way it should have. She deserves a career that does full justice to her talent and mastery. This is partly due to the fact that she has no dedicated support and professional management that any artist needs. It is my sincere wish that whoever reads this interview and feels compelled to approach this sympathetic and gifted artist will do so without hesitations!

© Willem Boone 2003

Details: Written by: Willem Boone

23 September 2006

Some artists are the same in “real life” as they are on stage. Eliane Rodrigues is an example of this: she speaks with simplicity and has a gift for communication that she also shows at the piano. What is most important to her is to touch the hearts of the audience in the most sincere way...

Willem Boone (WB): I read in your biography that you already played Mozart’s Piano Concerto KV 488 at the age of six, can you remember anything about that?

Eliane Rodrigues (ER): No, my first public concert was with Haydn’s Piano Concerto in D major. I took part in a competition and the prize was this performance with orchestra which was broadcast on television. I played Mozart’s KV 488 shortly after, but I can’t remember much of it. I know that I loved to dance as a child, my mother was a ballerina at the Theatro Municipal in Rio de Janeiro.

WB: That Mozart concerto is no easy by any means...

ER: What does “easy” mean and what does “difficult” mean? Children easily learn to speak a language and don’t realize that some things can be difficult. You use the words that suit you best. The younger you start, the better. I have been lucky with my teachers: they taught me the right technique.

WB:Even more special in your biography is that you wrote a piano method at a very early age “Eliane in the paradise of keys”. This is very unusual for a child, did you know at the time that you wanted to write a method?

ER: It wasn’t meant as a method. I started composing at a very early age, when I was three years old, but I wasn’t yet able to write down my compositions. A befriended conductor said to my mother that it was a shame that the compositions couldn’t be noted, and so he helped me by giving various exercices, for example compose a piece of music in a certain key or to write pieces with a width of an octave, etc. I played them on the piano and he wrote them down. Later all of them were collected in a method with scales, thirds, etc.

WB: Is it still being used in Brazil?

ER: I think so, but I haven’t played in Brazil for the last ten years. I have been conducting my own music festival in Switzerland, which has taken a lot of time. Besides, I didn’t want to go to Brazil without my children.

WB: We think of Brazil as being the country of the samba (among other things), but what tradition does this country have as far as classical music is concerned?

ER: There is definitely a tradition for piano with some famous artists. Compared to European standards, the situation has been pretty bad for a long time. In Europe, almost every average sized town has opportunities to experience culture, concerts and they often have their own orchestras. Unfortunately the situation is different in Brazil. People are certainly open to classical music and ballet, Brazilians are very open in general. However, art is very expensive in Brazil.

WB: You said it has an important tradition as far as pianists are concerned, but are there that many famous names? I can of course think of a few names, for instance Novaes,Tagliaferro, Freire,Cohen, Ortiz, but compared to Russia or the United States this is modest amount!

ER: No, perhaps you are right, but a few of the names you mentioned are very famous: Freire, Cohen, Ortiz (she also mentions the name of Martha Argerich, however she is native from Argentina). There are not that many famous names that graduate from the Juilliard School either.

WB: Isn’t it a bit of a cliché to claim that South American pianists always have so much temperament?

ER: I believe that every human being has temperament. The Brazilian pianists you just mentioned are very different: Freire is introvert and is different from Argerich, but they form a good duo. Cohen and Ortiz too have their own individual style.

WB: What is specifically South American about your playing?

ER: My temperament is not typically southamerican. I want to experience every emotion to the full, I am always searching for colours and sounds. If I learn a piece, I feel what is inside it and I use colours, but also variations in speed and dynamics to bring out different emotions. I am not against extremes, but I dislike circus like acts that are only used to attract attention. I always want to believe my own choices. By the way, a well written musical composition can be played in many different ways by people with different personalities!

WB: You often play music by your fellow citizen Heitor Villa Lobos, why is this?

ER: I don’t play his music that often, I don’t want to be labeled as a specialist.

WB: What does his music mean to you?

ER: It has a lot of colours: I recognize my country in his music. In Brazil, nature is very colourful: people sing many popular tunes... When I visited the Lago Maggiore in Italy, I noticed a lot of different green colours!

WB: Is his music pianistic, because that’s what it sounds like!

ER: Yes, it’s well written for the instrument. It’s music with many different rhythms, furthermore the independence of the fingers is important to play his music well. And you have to be relaxed. Everything you are doing has to look easy and go straight to people’s hearts.

WB: Was Villa Lobos a good pianist himself?

ER: He played the cello: I don’t know whether he played the piano. I have never heard that he was a good pianist, but neither was Ravel, whereas he composed really well for piano!

WB: Do you play any music by other Brazilian composers?

ER: Yes, I also play Claudio Santoro, Lorenzo Fernandez and .. Nepomuceno.

WB: Do you often perform in Brazil?

ER: In the beginning, I used to, but when I was 19 years old, I went to Europe (Belgium) and I decided to stay there and got more concerts in Europe.

WB: Would you like to play in your home country again after so many years?

ER: Yes, I would love to, I have been asked many times, but it is difficult to organize these trips.

WB: Do you like living in Europe?

ER: In the beginning, it was very hard, because I didn’t speak the language. I was more open than other people around me and I had the impression that I scared them a little. At the conservatoire (of Antwerp, WB), I had little contacts with fellow students and if it happened, I spoke English or French. After four years, I learnt to speak Dutch.

WB: What are the differences between musical life in Europe and Brazil?

ER: There are many! You can’t compare them, there are many more concerts in Europe! It is really sad that Brazilians don’t have more money and opportunities to go to concerts, especially those people in small villages.

WB: Are there many pianos available in small cities and villages?

ER: That’s difficult to say for such a big country. I lived in Rio de Janeiro and then left for Europe.

WB: In 1983, you won fifth prize in the notorious Queen Elizabeth Competition. Many people who attented the competition disagreed and thought you deserved to win a better prize. What do you think of this decision on reflection?

ER: If I listen to the performance I played in the final round (Beethoven’s Fourth Piano Concerto, WB), I think it was a very good performance, but I thought that the Frenchman Pierre Alain Volondat, who won first prize with Liszt’s Second Piano Concerto had a very special charisma. He was a clear winner because of this charisma. As far as our playing is concerned we both fitted into the same category. I can understand that the jury must have thought at the time that I was insufficiently prepared to play to a large audience and that I wasn’t yet ready to start a career. Maybe I also dressed too plainly and I didn’t have enough stage presence. The good thing is that my fifth prize allowed me to grow in a much more natural way, whereas it must have been especially tough for Volondat, who wasn’t prepared for a world career either (Volondat almost completely disappeared from concert stages, whereas Rodrigues is still performing after 23 years, WB). Things happened the other way around with me: I got concerts and had enough time to grow. That was just a matter of luck. I think it makes a difference which pianist the jury hears at the end, these impressions last the longest!

WB: Concerning your charisma, you come across as a positive, sunny almost innocent (in the positive meaning of the word!) who plays very naturally, almost the way another person breathes. To me you do not seem to be the type of pianist who struggles with music: do you recognize yourself in this description?

ER: Yes, I think it’s true. I find a lot of balance, hope and human warmth in music. For me it’s not a matter of showing how intelligent you are. I try to show that the world has two sides.

WB: Which sides do you mean?

ER: Pain and joy, you have to make an effort to bring out both, but I think working is good for the human spirit, regardless of whether this is at the keyboard or if it’s the job you are doing, if you do nothing, you will end up depressed.

WB: Do you think my description of you being a natural pianist is accurate?

ER: Yes, absolutely!

WB: On the other hand, you also play “difficult” music that requires a certain amount of wisdom and maturity, such as opus 111 by Beethoven or late piano pieces by Brahms. How do you go about playing such works?

ER: The same way, I try to get as near as I can to the composers intentions. Everything should be used to honour the composer in the best possible way; sound, dynamics, use of the pedal until I feel 100% what the composer wanted to express.

WB: How do you know that?

ER: You feel it! What I also find important is the feeling you have before you press the keys. Pianists often to tend to press the keys too hastily, but sometimes you need to play very gently with the keys...

(The dog jumps against the window, Rodrigues says he is “her best friend, he sits next to me when I study and stays until I finish”, I can’t resist saying that he must be a very lucky dog, “I spoilt him”Rodrigues adds).

WB: Something else that strikes me: you look quite fragile and don’t have big hands, yet you play very demanding works like Brahms Second Piano Concerto or Prokofiev’s Second Piano Concerto, where do you get the power from that is needed to play such monsters?

ER (Looks at her hands and stretches them): My hands aren’t that small! Not really... they are elastic.. if I need to, I can play a tenth, I don’t have problems either to play fortissimo. I can prepare a huge forte or play very fast if that’s required. It is important that you know which note you want to bring out. You have to build up a forte or a pianissimo!

WB: But still, the Second Brahms Concerto, that is an enormous tour de force for any pianist, isn’t it?

ER: I don’t know, I don’t think in terms of power, you simply have it! You have to think of what you want to express and you continuously have to renew the energy. Brahms’s Second Concerto is very well written, he has a lot to say. It is like a huge mountain, if you want to climb it, you have to spread your energy and can’t let yourself get exhausted too early while asking yourself: “How can I get to the top?”

WB: Do you have a good memory?

ER: You always have to practice and make an effort until you know a piece. If I study, I immediately hear the harmonies, even in broken octaves, especially in the left hand, but sometimes also in the right hand.

WB: Does that help you to memorize the piece better?

ER: Yes, it does!

WB: What are you thinking of when you play before an audience?

ER: I always think of the message I want to bring across, it is as if I am talking.

WB: But there may be pieces you have played very often, isn’t there a danger that your mind switches off?

ER: The danger is always there, but I never play without feeling. I like to take risks, I’d rather play a note less well than play without expressing anything. By the way, I love to sing for my children and the dog when I am at home!

WB: How does that help you play the piano?

ER: You learn to express your feelings. Conducting also helped me, not only from the keyboard. I have conducted works by Bernstein and Holst and spoken a lot with trumpet players and violinists. I asked them how they played certain things and that taught me more about their instruments. I have also composed orchestral pieces.

WB: Do you have a favourite composer?

ER: That would be unfair towards other composers... I’d be sad to choose only one, there are a few. Bach, Mozart and Beethoven are very great composers.. Also Chopin, Brahms, sometimes Liszst, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Ravel, Debussy...

WB: I gather you must have a soft spot for Chopin? You have been playing a Chopin afternoon concert on 26 December in the main hall of De Doelen in Rotterdam, I remember the occasion during one of your concerts when members of the audience wouldn’t stop coughing!

ER: Maybe that is because they are not used to going to concerts, but even they deserve attention. I want to bring something that is nice to them and that makes them say: “That was beautiful, I’d like to hear that again”. You know, in Mozart’s time people also went to the bathroom during the music...

WB: Which pianists do you admire?

ER: Leif Ove Andsnes has done beautiful things, Volodos too sometimes.

WB: And among the older pianists, are there any examples?

ER: Horowitz! I always like to hear what he does when I study something he has played too. He is not the only pianist I listen to: I also like Rachmaninov, Lipatti, Schabel.. With Schabel, I understand what he wanted to convey. He sometimes makes me laugh and I have the impression that he was smiling to himself whilst he played...

WB: And among your direct colleagues, what about someone like Martha Argerich?

ER: She is very interesting and always comes up with new ideas in the pieces she plays. She does beautiful things sometimes. I like to listen to her, because she’s not fake, she’s always been herself.

WB: What do you think of Alicia de Larrocha?

ER: I have never heard her live, but she seems like a very complete pianist to me. An artist should make sure that people feel safe, they listen to someone who makes them enjoy beautiful music and doesn’t cause them pain...

(Rodrigues mentions Horowitz again and enthuses) I heard him twice and he was so funny!

WB: Was he funny or did you find him funny?

ER: He was just funny! The way he entered on stage, he first looked around the corner.. The music was very simple when he played, there was not one unnecessary movement of his body. He was like a magician with all his cards! Radu Lupu is another very great pianist, he and Horowitz compliment each other!

WB: I have a hard time with Horowitz’s rubato, don’t you think that was excessive?

ER: That doesn’t matter... That’s the way he was born and he could never have played like Lupu, that’s why he was Horowitz. It wouldn’t have worked the other way around either. We are very priviliged to have so many different pianists.

After the interview ended, Rodrigues and I speak off the record about a few things. I tell her that I liked her performance of the Third Chopin Sonata very much, hoping that she will play it on 26 December in Rotterdam during her Chopin recital (Later on, in November, she tells me that she has indeed changed her programme and that she will indeed play this sonata!). I felt very happy when she said to me “You should go on with this, you know a lot about music!”, that’s just about the best encouragement you can receive!

Details: Written by: Willem Boone

Rotterdam, 12 November 2006

There were several reasons I wanted to speak to Elisabeth Leonskaja. Firstly because she is an individual artist, who managed to build up a career in Western Europe after she immigrated to Vienna in 1979. Secondly, because she is not only an excellent player of Schubert and Brahms, but she also excels in taxing repertoire such as the Brahms concertos, the Liszt sonata and Moussorgsky’s Pictures. Last but not least, because she knew the great Sviatoslav Richter very well. When I approached her for an interview, she preferred not to meet on Saturday, when she was off, because she needed to practise Prokofieff’s develishly difficult 2nd Piano Concerto for an upcoming performance in New York. She therefore asked me to come on Sunday morning, three hours before her afternoon concert. Much to my relief she showed up at 11 am sharp and we went to one of the artist rooms upstairs in De Doelen of Rotterdam. She first made sure we had enough tea and then started a long interview that impressed me a lot, because of her seriousness and calm self assured attitude amongst other reasons. It was also impressive to see that she was still visibly moved to speak about her great friend and colleague Richter....

Willem Boone (WB): A Dutch pianist who gave a pre-concert lecture about the Schumann Piano Concerto said about this piece that it is “innovative”, what do you think of this?

Elisabeth Leonskaja (EL): Sure, but what exactly did she mean?

WB: That the piano and the orchestra share the themes and sometimes the piano is part of the orchestra

EL: That was already the case with Mozart’s concertos after K 400, the piano is not a solo instrument, but it contributes to a beautiful composition. As far as the form is concerned, these concertos are indeed innovative.

WB: Your colleague also said that the last movement of the Schumann Concerto has bravura, what do you think?

EL: To a certain extent, yes. It should be played as a long waltz, whereas it is often played as march, which destroys the grace of the piece. If you a play it like a waltz, it is much more beautiful. It is a difficult movement though, since it requires a lot of “dash”and energy.

WB:Is it a pianistic concerto?

EL: There are parts that are uncomfortable pianistically speaking, for instance the cadenza.

WB: Liszt apparently didn’t want to play it any more,since it was not pianistic enough...

EL: We don’t know how he meant this, he considered the pianistic character of a piece in terms of pure virtuosity

WB: Were you asked to play Schumann or did you choose to play this concerto yourself?

EL: I was asked, I actually wanted to play the 2nd Concerto by Prokofieff, but then they asked me to substitute with the Schumann Concerto.

WB: Do you accept such requests?

EL: Yes, you should respect them.

WB: You have already played three times and in a few hours, you will play in a few hours again during this afternoon’s performance. Do you play differently each time?

EL: I think so. After all, we are different every day. The main concept remains the same, but in every performance there are different details and colours.

WB: Are you conscious of this?

EL: Yes, that’s my experience. I noticed that there were less people in the hall on Friday and therefore the sound was clearer.

WB: What do you think of this hall? (Main hall of De Doelen in Rotterdam, WB)

EL: As far as the sound is concerned, not particularly great. The piano sounds ok, but I am not sure how it sounds if you play loudly. The sound disperses.

WB: How long have you lived in Western Europe?

EL:Since 1979.

WB: Did your playing change because of this?

EL: I am in a different place now. We play like we are, so if we change, we play differently.

WB: What is a necessity in this profession?

EL: The same as in any other job... The command of the instrument should be natural. It is our language. You must express what is written in the text. Just playing an instrument well does not convey anything to anyone, it will not convey a spiritual message. Other than that, you also need absolute dedication.

WB: Is there something you want to convey when you play?

EL: That’s in the notes, right?

WB: Yes, but not everyone succeeds to bring the message across...

EL:Heinrich Neuhaus has written fantastic books and he once said: “Do not find yourself in the music, but find the music in yourself”, that makes the job interesting!

WB: Did you know Neuhaus?

EL: A little, when I knew him when I came to Moscow as a teenager.

WB: You knew Sviatoslav Richter very well, I consider him to be the greatest pianist I have ever heard live...

EL: I don’t think that any other pianist possibly had such a great spirit. The singer Elisabeth Schwarzkopf said about him: “Slava is not of this world”

WB: What was your relationship with him like?

EL: As a young woman, I was married to the violonist Oleg Kagan. Richter was supposed to play the 1st Bartok Sonata and the 1st Prokofieff Sonata with Oistrach, but he didn’t have much time to practise, therefore he asked my husband to help him practise. I often went to Richter’s house and he made me feel welcome. It was a familiar relationship. That’s where we got the idea to play on two pianos, first the Andante and variations by Schumann. He loved to record Mozart’s sonatas in the transcription for two pianos by Grieg. He had wanted to do that since his youth, when his father used to play these sonatas with his students.

WB: When did you get to know him?

EL: At the end of the 60’s. Our friendship lasted until his last days and became increasingly important. It meant a lot to me. The way he saw the world has marked the way I think forever

WB: Can you remember any of his views in particular?

EL:It was more his attitude in general.

WB: What was he like as as human being? Ater watching the Monsaingeon documentary I had the impression that he was a rather complicated man.

EL: He was simple and great. I thought the film about the book by Monsaingeon was interesting but I am not sure whether people realized how great he was in reality

WB: He was incredibly self-critical!

EL: That’s a sign of greatness! Don’t you think Rembrandt was self critical?

WB:He was not only critical about his colleagues, but also about himself

EL: Yes, but he was much closer to himself than to a lot of his colleagues..

WB: Then again, he was very positive about you!

EL: There was a moment, after he had just heard me play, when he gave me a huge compliment. I was still very young at the time. I played a recital in Bonn, which he attended with his wife. I first played two Beethoven sonatas, opus 2/2 and opus 111, aswell as the big Tschaikofsky Sonata. Before the concert, he said to me “Lisa, how can you do this? After opus 111, you can’t play anything at all!”, but then after the concert he said; “It was possible after all”. To his wife, he said “This girl is on the right path”. You know, I owe my skill to play softly to him!

WB: Because he did it so well?

EL: When we played together, he always said “softer!”and I really had to force myself, but after a year I thought:”My tonal range is becoming richer”

WB: What does it mean when such a great colleague values you so much?

EL: A lot, he was God, he was on the Olympus! We often discussed things and I once asked him: “What does happiness mean for you?” to which he answered: “Oh, when you are in a good mood and can walk around in Prague” That was meant as a joke of course. He loved Czechoslavakia.

WB: There was a lot of discussion about the end of Monsaingeon’s film, when Richter said “I don’t like myself”

EL: No, he didn’t say that! He said: “I am not pleased about myself”. Just imagine his state of mind at the end of his life. It was a state of inner decline. He whitnessed his life ending, whilst fully conscious of what was happening. He didn’t like the circumstances. He had always been energetic, he walked a lot, he also read an enormous amount of books, among which the complete works of Zola and Balzac, Dante aswell. He often came to Vienna with his wife and I always went to see them. His bypass operation, approximately six years before his death, came much too late. His arteries had been severely affected by sugar, and yet, he managed to play a lot of concerts. Later, he got a pace maker and he used to say: “I have a new heart”. A few years later, he fell in Paris and broke one of his knees. That was the beginning of the end.

WB: Did he really practise for up to ten hours a day?

EL: That’s logical if you play so many different programmes! He managed to play 150 different programmes! Also during the last years of his life, he played an incredible amount of compositions.

WB: About the Mozart/Grieg sonatas you mentioned before, why did you specifically recorded these with him?

EL: You shouldn’t be snobby about this. At the time, there was of course no internet, no CD’s and people couldn’t travel as easily as they can nowadays. There was a genius like Grieg who made the effort to bring these pieces to the people. Of course, it is romantic and Nordic, but he made his transcriptions with such piety!

WB: Don’t you think these pieces are examples of kitsch?

EL: It would be unfair to call it kitsch! It was simply something from another era and from another culture.

WB: Did you play other pieces with Richter?

EL: Yes, the Poulenc Double Concerto in Tours. During the same concert, he also played both the 2nd and 5th Saint Seans Concertos. The 2nd concerto was new to his repertoire, he had played the 5th before and wanted to take it up again.

WB: Did you like his performance of the 2nd concerto?

EL: Yes, very much.

WB: I have to say that Richter hardly ever disappointed me, but I heard a recording of this interpretation and I thought it was bad, very wooden and much too slow!

EL: You obviously couldn’t value the inner energy in his playing.. There can also be pulsation in slow tempi as well as a spiritual energy. Critics have often a stony and unmoved opinion. First of all, you have to open your spirit to hear what happens internally and then accept this..

WB: Are there performances by Richter you particularly remember?

EL: He once played the Appassionata in Amsterdam (in 1991, I was present at the same concert, WB), that was so perfect that it made me cry. And his Bach!

WB: Yes, exactly, when you listen to his Well Tempered Klavier, you would almost say that there are four different pianists playing!

EL: After his recording of this opus, he said, very modestly, “I hope it helps”. Do you know what he meant?

WB: No, not quite!

EL: That it helped to refresh his polyphonic thinking!

WB: Richter had an unusual power at the piano, when you watch the film and see how he mastered the 5th Prokofieff concerto !

EL: He wore out his enormous energy! The conductor Sandor Vegh said about him: “Even Richter makes mistakes, but his mistakes are great!”.

WB: Are there other artists that made a similar impression on you?

EL: No, because I haven’t been as close with any other artist. Richter often asked me to play second piano when he studied new concertos.

WB: He never thought of leaving Russia though.

EL: No, such geniuses don’t need to do that.

WB: Did he discuss this with you when you left Russia?

EL: I knew that he was very concerned, but he never discussed this with me.

WB: Did you often hear Gilels play?

EL: He was not my favourite pianist I have to say. I like his recordings, but his concerts lacked colour, although he played perfectly. I went to his concerts all the time, as I wanted to find out what he wanted to express. For me Gilels was a great pianist, but Richter was a greater artist.

WB: Are there conductors with whom you got on really well with?

EL: Kurt Masur and also Sir Colin Davis are great musicians. With Pletniev I played Schumann and the 2nd Brahms Concerto. I was completely happy to make music with the latter. He is so honest and has no pretence whatsoever!

WB: Did you perform with Kondrashin?

EL: Yes, I did, too bad he died so early! He was very different after he moved to the West, mellower and more open...

WB: You just mentioned Pletniev, what do you think of him as a pianist?

EL: He is an incredibly gifted and honest musician! Other than that, I value Lupu and it’s always great to hear Leif Ove Andsnes.

WB: I have a recording at home where you accompany the violinist Philippe Hirshorn...

EL: He too was a great talent, but he didn’t manage to find himself. It is sad when a great talent doesn’t manage to establish itself. Not everybody manages this as well as Gidon Kremer!

WB: I don’t know if I may ask you this, but you play quite a lot of “masculine”pieces like the Brahms concertos and the Liszt sonata...

EL (laughs) all young girls want to play this, don’t they?

WB: Are they more difficult for a woman to play than for a man?

EL: It depends on which woman plays. For Maria Joao Pires, the 2nd Brahms Concerto would probably be too demanding, but in the past Gina Bachauer played it succesfully.

WB: And you will shortly play the 2nd Prokofieff Concerto, why this one?

EL:It is such an impossible piece! But it’s also a great piece. There is so much in it, such a variety of different harmonic details. I want to play it in such a way that there will be a maximum of clarity and that all will say: “This is a tragic piece!”. Imagine when Prokofieff received a letter from his best friend Maximilian Schmidthof who had shot himself. The concerto was dedicated to him!

WB: Will this be the first time that you play this piece?

EL: No, I have played it before.

WB: But it is not only a tragic piece, is it? There are also very beautiful lyrical passages?

EL: What is “tragic”? There is simply no way out when you listen to this music, it encompasses everything... (thinks) it is a pretty difficult piece for sure!

WB: You made a new recording with late piano pieces by Brahms on a period instrument the other day, is there a specific reason you did this?

EL: The producer of the label loves period instruments and he really wanted me to play on an old piano.

WB: So it wasn’t that you really wanted to play these pieces on a period instrument?

EL: No, they also sound beautiful on a modern Steinway! I must say that a period instrument has a few disadvantages, mechanical problems like background noises.

WB: Do you have a preference for Brahms and Schubert above other composers? You often play their music.

EL: When you live in Vienna, you know the air Brahms and Schubert inhaled...

WB: Do you teach?

EL: I sometimes give master classes. I like to do this, but it may be dangerous at times. You have to leave yourself enough time, and you shouldn’t become self righteous and think you know better than everyone else....

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