Details

Written by: Willem Boone

Arnhem, 8 November 2010

When I interviewed Barry Douglas, I noticed how taxing the job of a pianist can be: moving from one place to another, struggling against jetlag after a long flight from the United States, a rehearsal and a concert ahead during which he had to substitute for an indisposed Ivan Moravec.. And on top of that an interview…

Willem Boone (WB): I heard you back in 1987 when you played the Third Piano Concerto by Prokofiev with Vladimir Ashkenazy in Amsterdam. Do you still remember this concert?

Barry Douglas (BD): Yes, I do. It was a great tour, we played four concerts, we also played in Luzern, but I do not remember were the other two performances took place.

WB: Is it different when you are accompanied by a conductor who is also a pianist?

BD: He knows the score well, which makes things easy. And Ashkenazy is a wonderful musician!

WB: On your website, I read that you did Brahms’s First Piano Concerto both as a soloist and a conductor? Why would you take on such a difficult job in such a symphonic concerto?

BD: I want to come to a unified interpretation. It is possible to be both conductor and soloist in this concerto, but you need a lot of rehearsals, during which you have to discuss with the leaders of each section. We will do the Second Concerto in April 2011.

WB: You must have done Brahms’s First Concerto with a lot of conductors. Does the fact that you wish to conduct yourself mean that you were not happy with your previous interpretations?

BD: No, I was happy about earlier experiences, although they were never quite exactly what I wanted to do.

WB: Do you always have the scores of the compositions you play with you?

BD: I carry them around, but I know them all.

WB: You will start your recital tonight with two pieces by John Field. I never heard his music played in concerts!

BD: He was an interesting composer and pianist. He was a virtuoso from Dublin and he influenced a lot of composers, e.g. Chopin, Mendelssohn and Liszt, but also Russian composers, since he taught in Sint Petersburg. He also was an interesting personality in Paris in the 1840s.  He wrote seven concertos and he invented the Nocturnes!

WB: Are there any other well-known Irish composers?

BD: In the operatic field there was a composer called Balf and Arnold Bax lived in Ireland for a long time.

WB: Chopin made some bad comments about Field…

BD: Yes, one was not very nice to the other. As far as the Nocturnes are concerned, Chopin was probably more inspired by the belcanto of Bellini, but Field was the one who invented the nocturnes. Of course, Chopin had his own genius…

WB: Speaking of which, I can’t remember I ever heard you play Chopin?

BD: I play his music from time to time.

WB: What do you think of pianists like Brendel who says it’s either Chopin or ‘the others”?

BD: Maybe he is right, maybe he is not, but one thing is for sure: with Chopin, your technique gets better and better!

WB: Is Chopin the only composer where you feel this?

BD: I think so, yes.

WB: Why is that?

BD: He demands such clarity and control with relatively few notes.. It is rather like Mozart..

WB: What is the most difficult to bring out in Chopin’s music according to you?

BD: The breathing of the phrases, especially when the tempi are slow. You have to emulate the human voice.

WB: Your colleague Martha Argerich once said that Chopin and Liszt were “jealous of each other” when combined in the same recital programme. Can you say the same about combining Chopin and Schumann?

BD: It is good to have an intermission in between..Schumann comes from a different tradition. In the First Sonata which I will play tonight, the writing is more symphonic. Field introduces in a quiet way the newness of the Schumann sonata and then, after the intermission, the Chopin Polonaises are dark with big base melodies, in a way there are links with the Schumann sonata. Tonight’s programme is about links between composers.

WB: What makes the First Sonata so new?

BD: He was criticized for being episodic. The build-up of the short episodes produces amazing music.

WB: Don’t you think Schumann was better in shorter pieces?

BD: Not better, anything he wrote was very interesting, even the unusual way he structures the bigger pieces. You could also criticize Beethoven for his later compositions or Brahms for his orchestration..

WB: Was Brahms often criticized for that?

BD: O yes, the orchestration of his First Piano Concerto was called too thick and lacking in clarity..

WB: You won the Tschaikofsky competition in 1986, were you the first non-Russian winner after Van Cliburn in 1958?

BD: No, there were others, like John Ogdon in 1962, but he shared first prize with Ashkenazy.

WB: Is Tschaikofsky still one of your favourite composers?

BD: O yes, he is wonderful!

WB: Did you often get the opportunity to play the Third Concerto or the Fantasy for piano and orchestra?

BD: Neither of them are very popular, I played the Second and Third Concertos a few times, I never played the Fantasy in concert.

WB: So did you learn the latter for the recording?

BD: No, I played it many times in concert

WB: You just said you never performed it in concert?

BD: I meant not since the recording, orchestras are scared to play it..

WB: Isn’t it the pianist who should be scared?

BD: It is not a very difficult piece.

WB: No? There is a huge cadenza, isn’t there?

BD: Yes, you are right, there is a big cadenza..

WB: From a technical standpoint, which of Tschaikofsky’s concertos is the most difficult one?

BD: They are all difficult, the First is very difficult, but it is also light and transparent, not one note is out of place, it is very beautifully written, the Second is a bigger piece, it is like a canvas..

WB: Did you play the Second Concerto in the Siloti version?

BD: I played both versions.

WB: What do you think of his solo piano works?

BD: Some of them are very beautiful, e.g. The Seasons, they are sometimes like little miniature operas..

WB: Not long ago, a CD was released with your performances of Rachmaninov’s First and Third Concertos on BMG, accompanied by Svetlanov. They were recorded some time ago, what was the reason that they were issued after all?

BD: There are other Svetlanov recordings that were not released. The Rachmaninov Concertos were forgotten about for a while, but then a new boss came in at BMG and he wanted to release them!

WB: Did you forget about them as well?

BD: I couldn’t remember what they sounded like. I did a lot of concerts with Svetlanov. Interestingly enough, he started as a pianist and a composer. I cannot remember the beginning of the Third Concerto better played than with Svetlanov. Piano and orchestra breathed together.

WB: Were these live recordings?

BD: No, studio recordings.

WB: Is Rach “Third” truly the most difficult piece?

BD: Everything is difficult! You could say the same about Mozart. Actually, anything is difficult if you want to make it sound convincing and beautiful. It’s not just about the notes…

WB: If you look back on the period 1986-November 2011, were there any important artistic developments in your career?

BD: A lot of different things, for example, working with Kurt Sanderling or Svetlanov, both were very impressive conductors.

WB: Are there things you would like to do in the near future?

BD: I have a chamber orchestra and I would like to do an opera festival with an opera company in Ireland during which I’d like to conduct. It would be just for one weekend per year, maybe some early Verdi or Händel.

WB: But it doesn’t mean you will abandon the piano?

BD: No, I won’t!

 

 

Details

Written by: Willem Boone

Rotterdam,   November 2023

‘That’s the right answer for an Italian!’ says Beatrice Rana as she asks me whether I want a big or a small cup of black coffee (I asked for the former), shortly before the start of our interview in one of the beautiful dressing rooms of De Doelen in Rotterdam. 

Willem Boone (WB): Thank you  for your Rachmaninoff, Beatrice! I truly enjoyed it.. What I really liked was that it was so a-sentimental. People can overdo Rachmaninoff sometimes.
Beatrice Rane (BR): Thank you, I think as someone who grew up loving this concerto, it can be very tempting to be self-indulgent with this music, as it is so beautiful. Not only the melodies, but also the harmonies are sheer pleasure for every musician. I remember when I first heard Rachmaninoff play this concerto, I was absolutely shocked at how not self-indulgent he was. He was always going for it, going ahead, not stopping at every note, but he had this strong sense of direction. It made me think, because if he was playing this way and he was the composer, the urge must have been there. This piece was written at the end of a dark period for him, I think you can see that the piano represents Rachmaninoff himself, fighting against the orchestra and his circumstances. I really feel this wants to get out and this is what I tried to do with my interpretation.

WB: Is Rachmaninoff your model in this concerto?
BR: Yes, of course there are great interpretations by great pianists. I was inspired by many others, but when I heard him, the concerto became something else than the usual piece with nice things. Not just the Hollywood-music, but something deeper than that. 

WB: A colleague of yours, Yefim Bronfman, once said: ‘His interpretation was actually cold, and because of that, it was very hot and passionate’!
BR (enthuses): Yes, exactly, it is something that doesn’t make a lot of sense when you say it, but it is true. This music is so warm, it is like hot chocolate, but if you swim and do too much, then you die in it. It requires a lot of strength to get in the right direction.

WB: Do you play the Third Piano Concerto too?
BR: I have played it only once, but it is in my plans to play it more often.
WB: I have spoken to other piansts like Leif Ove Andsnes and Yevgeny Sudbin and they both said – which surprised me – that the Second is sometimes more difficult than the Third or, at least, it’s very tricky?
BR: In a way I agree, but of course the Third is technically more difficult. It is true that the difficulties in this concerto are more pianistic. In the Second, the difficult passages are really difficult, there are a few spots that are uncomfortable for the piano. I think that the main problem is to understand what is going on, everything together with the orchestra. Architecture wise, it’s a very difficult concerto. 

WB: It was a beautiful performance. The conductor did beautiful things with the orchestra too.
BR: I think it is great that we got to play the concerto three times, so we really got to know each other. This orchestra has a wonderful sound for Rachmaninoff, the strings have such and deep and dark sound. It’s the darkness that Rachmaninoff experienced in his life. And with the brass and the beautiful wind solos, I was really inspired by the orchestra.

WB: Yes, I can imagine. The orchestra advertised for this concert and they said this about you: ‘She combines the best of Maria Joao Pires and Martha Argerich: the heavenly and the earthly and the spiritual poetry of Pires and the indomitable energy of Argerich. That sounds promising for her performance of ‘Rach 2’ where heaven and earth meet eachother.’ What do you think of this comment?
BR: (laughs): I think you should tell me what you think, I can’t judge! 
WB: But are you flattered or are you annoyed?
BR: Luckily you’ve told me now and not before the concert, I didn’t know the orchestra said this about me! (laughs).
WB: It was announced on their website.
BR: I haven’t checked it out, but of course, I am flattered that people have written this about me. Pires and Argerich are both incredible artists, but I think at the same time, it’s important to be yourself. I am flattered by the comparison..
WB: I could imagine that it also puts a strain on you..
BR: That’s why I don’t check out websites. (laughs)

WB: I have a few questions about an interview you gave five years ago to one of the leading Dutch newspapers, NRC Handelsblad, before your first recital in Amsterdam. You said: ‘There is a tendency that musicians want to play flawlessly, but mistakes are part of life and sometimes they are even liberating.’ I was thinking: in what way is it liberating: does it make you feel more human?
BR: Sometimes it’s liberating because our profession is a performing profession. It’s not just an art. It’s not about making art away from the audience, you do it in front of the public, so the performance aspect is incredibly important. Of course, we are humans, so sometimes we are nervous. I practise a lot to not making mistakes and sometimes when you go on stage and you are nervous, to just make a mistake is very liberating. You feel: ‘Okay, now I’ve made my mistake, it had to come somehow and now I can stop worrying about mistakes and focus on the music.’ However, I’ve changed a lot compared to five years ago, my approach to the stage moment is different now.
WB: And what has changed?
BR: Well, I have played many more concerts during these five years and I didn’t play because of the pandemic either. Somehow the idea of not taking the audience for granted made me reflect on how important the communication with the audience is. It was awful to play without a public.

WB: Did you miss it?
BR: Very much so, yes. As I said, we are performing artists and at that time, we were performing for no-one. It was very sad and depressing. It is true that we give a lot to the stage, but the audience gives us a lot as well.
WB: Did you manage to keep practising?
BR: I have to say that it was very depressing at first, I was very shocked, but then it is in human nature to adapt to the circumstances. Every human being can adapt even to the worst things. We now adapt to the idea of war and genocide, it’s crazy because that shouldn’t happen with certain things. So I tried to deal with the pandemic circumstances and I took advantage of it, because I have been used to a very busy concert schedule since I was a teenager. At first, it didn’t know what to do and then I found that intimate contact with music and the instrument without the necessity to practize for a concert again. I was just practising for myself and that was a feeling I hadn’t experienced for a long time. 

WB: And how was it to start playing again?
BR: (whispers) Terrible…I was very nervous! I remember it was a concert in Spain, because in that country concert halls weren’t closed down in 2021. I had a duo concert with violinist Renaud Capuçon. I was very nervous and I looked at him to find out that he was very nervous too. We felt like kids but we had been doing that for our life! Somehow, it was a strange feeling.

WB: About making mistakes: can it be frustrating too that you practize a lot and can sometimes only give 60% of your potential?
BR: No, I wouldn’t say that, in concert you give much more than in the practise room. When you practise, you have everything under control, the good thing is that you don’t have everything under control in a concert hall. That’s the most inspirational moment: when you let the music go, you leave it free. You know the music and yourself better.

WB: Do you surprise yourself in concerts?
BR: Sometimes I don’t know why I do certain things, because I never thought of it before. It just comes from the inspiration of the moment. That’s what I like so much, sometimes it’s good, sometimes not really, but at least there is something that is alive.
WB: But you are not like Mikhail Pletnev who said: ‘When I make a mistake, I physically suffer from it’?
BR: I think everybody suffers because of mistakes (laughs). Well, maybe the word ‘suffer’ is too strong..
WB: If you really feel physical pain..
BR: There are different kinds of mistakes: stupid ones when you ask yourself ‘Why did I do that?’ and less stupid ones that still make you suffer.

WB: Another question from that same interview, it was your teacher who said: ‘The pianist is an illusionist.’ You said: ‘The image remains our greatest ally’ I asked myself whether that doesn’t go for any artist, so for painters and dancers too?
BR: Yes and no, because music is the only art that is not too visual. Of course, you can watch the performance, but music comes through the ears. Since it is such a universal and yet personal language, everyone can understand something different from what you do. The same source, the same sound can inspire two completely different images. I think that music is really the art that gives the most ambiguity in the performance moment. If you are go to an exhibit or a dance performance, or if you read a poem, there is always something concrete to look at, but with music there is not. Of course, every art goes against human beings: dancers fight against gravity and everyone has something to fight against. With the piano, you fight against the fact that it is a percussion instrument. Basically we don’t have legato, it is not within in the abilities of the instrument, so our goal is to create the illusion.

WB: You said something else that I found interesting: ‘The piano takes many forms, it is not often itself, but it evokes or imitates another instrument or an orchestra, a singer, a string player, a wind instrument. The grand piano speaks an intangible language, sometimes it paints the magic of light and darkness like Caravaggio or sometimes it’s like Manet.’ Would you call that a weakness or a strength of the piano?
BR: Both! 
WB: And what is the strength then?
BR: That it can be anything, no other instrument can be like that.
WB: And the weakness is that you can’t shape the sound the way you want?
BR: The worst part is that the piano shouldn’t sound like the piano (laughs) or at least in the bad sense as a percussion instrument, as I said before. It shouldn’t sound like the way it is reallly built. 

WB: And what image do you try to hold on to, are you imitating the human voice or a string player?
BR: It depends on the piece I am playing: in Chopin there is a lot of inspiration from the human voice and the opera. With Liszt, there is a strong orchestra influence.
WB: I asked a Dutch pianist what he thought about this quote and he said that the piano is like bread, you can eat it with anything..
BR: We don’t have breath with the piano and that is terrible. It is a big limitation for pianists. Even with string players, there is a movement of the bow.

WB: Claudio Arrau once said: ‘You shouldn’t be afraid of being boring’
BR: (laughs): That’s also what my teacher said! 
WB: Do you agree?
BR: Yes, I do. Our main preoccupation is to be boring and sometimes it is a mistake. 

WB: I have a few questions regarding the Piano Concerto by Clara Wieck that you recorded. She said about her Piano Trio that many considered as her best work, but then she also said: ‘Of course, it always remains the work of a woman who lacks power and invention.’ These are her own words, but it is not the best recommendation for your own works, is it?
BR: If she had said something good about her works, she wouldn’t have stopped composing, in my personal opinion she was an absolute genius. Maybe she was even more into playing than composing, but I have always admired her as a figure in the musical world. It was amazing that she toured through Europe with a lot of children at home. She was a revolutionary figure for the world in that time. When I started to practise the Piano Concerto, I had the strong feeling of the musical mind she had. It was composed when she was 14 years old, she was incredibly young. The work is full of imagination and the piano is really like an opera diva with the orchestra. There are lots of moments where the piano is in the spot lights. Not only does it shows the incredible virtuosity that she had, a very peculiar one, but it is also  a revolutionary concerto. First of all, there is no interruption between the second and third movements, it’s like Mendelssohn.

WB: Was he a model for her?
BR: No, I would say that she was closer to the Chopin concerto in E-minor and what is absolutely amazing is that she writes a second movement for piano and cello alone, it is like a romance for both instruments. This gives a dimension of how limitless she was, she would go from the symphonic dimension to chamber music, no one had done that before her. 
WB: I read somewhere that Schumann did the same in his Piano Concerto. Is there a duet for piano and cello in it?
BR: With Clara, there is only one cello, in Robert’s concerto, there is a big solo for cellos and then later, of course, in Brahms’s Second Piano Concerto. 

WB: Did Schumann support her as a composer?
BR: Yes, he did, it was very different from the Mendelssohns. Felix was completely against his sister Fanny composing music, but with Robert, I really feel this couple was ahead of their time. Women are often their own worst enemies! When Clara got married, it is very interesting, because they published a series of lieder in the same book, under both names. This shows how ahead of his time Robert was.
WB: Which opus is that?
BR: I don’t remember the opus number, it was published in their wedding year, ‘Widmung’ was one of the Lieder.
WB: Ah, is the cycle called ‘Myrthen’?
BR: I don’t know whether it’s the whole Myrthen, I am not sure. 

WB: Does she write well for piano?
BR: Very difficult, she had very strange hands. It is tricky.
WB: Because the piano works by Schumann are..
BR: ..very uncomfortable! 
WB: You said ‘the enormous power of the dramatic personality is very present’, in what way was she dramatic?
BR: She was very dramatic. She was a very strong woman with strong ideas and also faced hefty expectations from others, she was a tough woman! It comes across in her music..

WB: I also read that Schumann uses melodies from her in the third movement in his Piano Concerto. Is that true?
BR: With a couple, it’s always an exchange. There are lots of pieces that Schumann wrote with themes from Clara, like the Davidsbuendlertanze. It is not written, but the first part is completely Clara. It is always a mutual exchange.
WB: A friend of mine who is a pianist said the main theme in the first movement of Schumann’s Concerto, it’s her?
BR: Yes, it starts with a C and then A A, Clara.
WB: Does it mean that he refers to her as a musical motive? Was she the one who composed it?
BR: No, he wrote it, but he was always inspired by her, always. It was also, because his works were played by her, she was the pianist

WB: Do you often get the chance to play the Wieck Piano Concerto?
BR: Yes, many times. This season, I will be playing it with the Berliner Philharmoniker and Yannick, I will also play it in Luzern. It is wonderful to see the audience respond to the concerto.
WB: And you couldn’t play it in Rotterdam?
BR: Well, I can’t always play the same concerto (laughs)
WB: No, but were you asked for this concert to play the Rachmaninoff or were you the one who suggested it?
BR: I think I suggested it, but I don’t remember exactly.
WB: No, but since the Wieck Concerto is hardly every played.. There will be a Russian pianist who will play it in the Netherlands soon.
BR: I think it is becoming more popular, but people don’t really know this concerto.

WB: Do you plan to revive other unknown piano concertos?
BR: It is interesting to do, also because of the process to learn unknown concertos..there are not many interpretations of it, so there is a lot of freedom.

WB: True, I have a few questions about your compatriot Maurizio Pollini. In the same interview from which I quoted, you describe the first time you heard him and that he had received a lot of bad reviews, in which people complained that he made so many mistakes. However you said: ‘I liked his unique sound and the dark energy that never erupted, the obsessive drive, he taught me that it is not about technical perfection, but about a vision.’
BR: It is always interesting to see what a journalist has made from my words…
WB: You haven’t been correctly quoted?
BR: No, I understood what I said, but it is not exact: it’s difficult to speak about mistakes with Maurizio Pollini. There are some recordings that are astonishing for the technical aspect!. It doesn’t give Pollini enough credits for what he did.

WB: Exactly! I was going to say that the feeling about Pollini for many years was that he was flawless..
BR: It is always the problem with communicating with other people..
WB: I know that there have been even bitchier comments lately, I think he is struggling at the moment with heart problems at the moment. He stopped playing for a while and then he played in London in June and it was a disastrous concert according to reports. There was another concert in Switzerland not long ago. He is of course a legendary figure in the world of music, but isn’t there something of a taboo when someone gets over 80 loses some of his dexterity and technique and people say: ‘Hmm, do you really want to go on?’ Shouldn’t that be the agent’s job?
BR: I hope that there will be someone who loves me at 80 and tells me to stop. It’s not good for you. I believe the stage can be an addition and in a way it is the place where you feel yourself. I realised that it is the place where you express yourself during the pandemic. It was important to get back to the stage and remind yourself who you are. I imagine that it must be terrible at some point to stop, but a pianist, Ashkenazy, I believe, told me: ‘I prefer to regret myself, rather than the others to see me on stage.’ I admire people like Brendel a lot who understand when to stop, but there are miracles like Martha Argerich, who is 82..

WB: That’s correct, but she’s an exception!
BR: Yes, she is an exception
WB: I heard her twice one month ago with the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra and someone of my age (60) couldn’t have played better! I just don’t understand where she gets it from? She is very consistent in her pianism and her approach: she played fantastically at 20, 40, 60, 80..
BR: It is a transcendental virtuosity that goes beyond the physical.

WB: There are not many pianists over 80. Aldo Ciccolini is another example.
BR: He was fantastic!
WB: Cherkassky played superbly too, almost until the end of his life.
BR: I haven’t heard him, but I met Ciccolini and I remember the control of sound he had.
WB: He was so frail, but when he was seated at the piano, he was like a young man! Very economical in his movements and so are you by the way!
BR: We are from the same school, my teacher and my dad studied with Ciccolini.
WB: Would you say there is an Italian piano school?
BR: Yes, definitely, the school to which I belong is south-italian, it’s very strong and consistent. Ciccolini was from the same kind of school.
WB: Busoni too?
BR: No, he was from another school. It’s interesting, because people from abroad see Italians as ‘terra lucie vino’, a sunny country, but funnily enough, the piano school is a very scientific school. Busoni was of course a great connoisseur of the piano, Michelangeli had a scientific approach and so has Pollini towards Chopin. 
WB: Maria Tipo?
BR: Yes, of course, it’s a very big tradition.

WB: How do you see someone like Michelangeli?
BR: How do I see him? What a question (laughs)
WB: To me, he is like a mystery… Is he a God for you, he too had an incredible perfection, but what he did was very beautiful.
BR: In a way, he was a bit untouchable. He is not human as Pollini, I wonder what Michelangeli would do now in terms of life and career. What I love about him was how limited his repertoire was: how much depth and height could he reach with his repertoire? Now, it’s a problem if you don’t have enough of a repertoire, so yes, he was a model for me.
WB: There are a few things that nobody plays like him, like in Chopin’s Andante Spianato you have the same note four times, and when I heard him play it, they sounded like church bells and nobody has the same sound. 
BR: So, he is an illusionist (laughs)

WB: I have a few questions about your current recital programme, although I am not sure whether you are already performing it now. I was intrigued  by a piece by Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco, I thought he as mainly known for his guitar music?
BR: You are a guitar player, no?(She points to a splint that I wear to support the trigger finger in the right hand, WB)
WB: No, I injured that finger, but I don’t play the guitar. I am just a bad amateur pianist…
BR: Yes, he is known in the guitar world, because they don’t have as much of a repertoire as we pianists of course. He is also famous because of his movie music. He emigrated to America and composed a lot of music for movies. The piece I play is very beautiful, ‘Cipressi’ are trees grown in Italy in cemetaries, they symbolise death and eternity. In this case, it was a memory from childhood for him, because he had this house where there were cipressi. This composition is very visionary and I hope you can come to my recital. I didn’t know it and I heard it on CD. It reminded me of Debussy. You will hear it, the combination of Debussy and Castelnuovo-Tedesco is very interesting 

WB: How do you compose a recital programme like this, because you also play Scriabin and Liszt?
BR: Well, the starting point was the Liszt sonata, which is a true masterpiece. Of course, I don’t need to explan why it is a masterpiece. In a way I wanted to create a first half that would be a preparation for the second half. The Liszt sonata is like a novel in three big chapters: there is the tragedy, the drama, the devil and God. There is a very dramatic beginning: the presentation of the drama and then there is – I said it simply– the middle part that is very meditative, the third part is about escaping from the evil, the salvation and ascension. I wanted to recreate these three moments in the first half, but with different composers: the drama in the Fantasy of Scriabin, the meditation in the Cipressi by Castelnuovo- Tedesco and the final part of Debussy finishes with l’Isle joyeuse. I try to create these emotional journeys through music, I want the concert to be inspirational for the audience. It’s funny, because I played this recital last month and there are people who found connections between pieces that I didn’t notice myself. Everyone catches something different. 

WB: I once saw you play with your sister, is she a cellist? I really liked your performance of Mendelssohn I believe it was. Are you going to play more often together?
BR: Yes, in fact, we have some concerts together next year. I love playing with my sister.
WB: It is a beautiful sonata, there are two actually…
BR: Indeed, it was the D-major and yes, it’s an amazing piece. It’s just difficult, because there are so many notes (laughs). Actually, it was a gift from the COVID pandemic. We spent time in the same house and she said: ‘Now you don’t have any escape!’ (laughs). I always said no, because there are so many notes.
WB: I think the Rachmaninov cello sonata is even worse?
BR: The Chopin cello sonata is worse still I think…
WB: They were all good pianists!
BR: That’s the problem! (laughs).

WB: I have a few questions about an interview with Andras Schiff I read. He said that live music sounds different from a CD. In a concert hall, you can’t decide on the tempo and sometimes you play differently or you play with more or less pedal. And then he says that you control with your third, imagenary ear, because two is not enough. Do you recognize that?
BR: It’s very well said, as always with Schiff, who is such an intelligent musician. The third ear is related to the recording, did I understand that correctly?
WB: Yes, that’s correct.
BR: The problem is, as I said at the beginning of our interview, that our profession is a performer’s profession. The moment is very important. You change what you do, because of something different: you want to catch the attention of the audience, you want to say something differently, it has everything to do with the inspiration of the moment. With a recording, of course, it is very different: it must be inspired, but it must be inspired in the way that it is related to something that can last more. The problem is also that communication to the audience is not direct, as it is in a concert hall. There is me and you and nothing in between, but there are so many obstacles with a CD: the microphone, technology. It is about finding a direct link to the listener that goes beyond the moment. Of course, it is possible to make a recording that lasts forever. When I started recording, it was very frustrating, I would change my ideas about certain details two or three months later. 

WB: Do you make long takes when you record?
BR:  Yes, also, but it depends on the piece. I just recorded the Hammerklavier sonata and I did the third movement in one take. Sometimes it is difficult to find the flow again. In a way, I accept that a recording is just a photo of a certain moment. It is a good photo of course, but it is not like a live recording that can be improved or changed, it is something that refers to that moment.
WB: I was wondering this afternoon: are you always aware of what you do while playing?
BR: No… I wish it was good (laughs)
WB: I am not saying you are doing it on autopilot, it’s not that, but do you hear it or is it as if you are sitting elsewhere and you hear yourself play?
BR: No, that never happens, it would be impossible. What can I say? The self-awareness in a concert moment is always related to your expectations, so what comes out is always related to that. The judgment at the end is not the real one, but it is always a very personal one. That’s why I sometimes play and think: it was a terrible concert, but someone might come to see me and say it was wonderful.

WB: And when you feel bad and someone says it was great, does it lift you up or are you still depressed?
BR: It depends on who says it. We’re always very hard on ourselves.
WB: I do amateur acting and my theatre group normally puts on plays. Last summer, I played in a short movie that was filmed by a good amateur group. What struck me is that you can start with the last page and end with the first page, since almost every single sentence was filmed in a separate take. I think if you do that with a CD, you completely lose the idea of ….
BR: That is exactly what happens with a CD, that’s why making good CD’s is another kind of profession. It’s another form of art, it’s completely different.

WB: Are you still happy with your first CD? You had such guts playing the Second Prokofiev Concerto!
BR: The good thing is that I recognise myself, but I would probably play differently now. It also depends on the repertoire. Unfortunately I didn’t play the Prokofiev much after the recording..
WB: It is a beast!
BR: Yes, but it is a pity, I really liked to play it, but it didn’t happen. I’m happier with the Prokofiev than with the Tchaikovsky, which I performed so many times. I still play it a lot and constantly change my ideas about it. It keeps evolving.

WB: In the same interview with Schiff, he was asked what music actually meant to him. He said that it was very difficult to answer, it comes from silence and it ends with silence. If I ask you, is there a way you can answer that question or is it something you can’t answer because it’s music and not words?
BR: Indeed, it’s very difficult to answer what music means to you. It means everything, it has always been part of my life. There was no moment when I decided to become a musician or that I started playing the piano. It has always been with me. I would say something very different: there is never silence in my brain. Somehow music is my best friend, the best and the worst company when you need silence. It is a very strange relationship but for sure, it is the strongest relationship in my life (laughs).
WB: But it is still fulfilling after all?
BR: Yes, fulfilling maybe if you think about music in a professional way. For me, it is also a profession. It is what opens my mind every day, an endless source of inspiration. The most astonishing thing is that there is music everywhere: in nature, in everything. You go hiking in the mountains and you hear Mahler, you go to the beach and you hear Debussy and Ravel. It is all around us, it’s just a way to look at the world. That’s why I say it is the best company, because you recognize that. It is also my worst enemy sometimes…..but again, it is the strongest relationship I can imagine!

 

 

 

Details

Written by: Willem Boone

Arnhem, 2 November 2016

I managed to interview Benjamin Grosvenor while he was having lunch. A candid conversation with a serious, young artist who seems to have been around for a long time already....

Willem Boone (WB): I’d like to quote the composer Gustav Mahler who once said: “The most important is not in the notes”, do you agree with this?

Benjamin Grosvenor (BG): You can play perfectly, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that you transmit something. It’s not the notes, but it’s about the spaces in between. 

WB: If it’s not in the notes, then what is the most important and where is it to be found?

BG: It’s difficult to find: music communicates a lot of emotions and gestures. Even Beethoven said: “Wrong notes don’t matter, it’s not a crime!” 

WB: Can musicality be learnt?

BG: Difficult to say, I don’t have experience as a teacher, but there is something innate other people don’t have, a degree of responsiveness to music. 

WB: I saw a film on YouTube when you where you were 12 or 13 years of age, playing The Lark by Glinka and everything was already there. Is that indeed a sign that it cannot be learnt?

BG: Some people have it, others don’t! Some people have a seed, you can blossom it. 

WB: Is technique something that can be learnt as opposed to musicality?

BG: Technique is about mechanics and physics, it’s easier to sort out technical problems and it’s also easier for a teacher to teach technique..

WB: In a German review, I read: “Wunderkind wird erwachsen”, i.e. “prodigy is becoming an adult”, is that what you’d like to be referred to?

BG: I don’t know, I am often asked about it, I was very young when I started. At the time, I was striving for the same standard as nowadays. 

WB: In a few recent reviews (Financial Times, October 2016), I read: “A virtuoso of a rare kind, poetic, whimsical, an old fashioned romantic” or “A fabulous representative of the expressive old school who just happens to be one of our finest pianists”(BBC Radio 3, October 2016), or, again, “.. reminds of the young Joseph Hofman or Friedman”. How important is the old school to you?

BG: I don’t know, it’s a flattering description.

WB: “Whimsical”, doesn’t that sound negative in English?

BG: It depends on the playing, there are pieces that are whimsical, e.g. the excerpts from Goyescas by Granados that I will play tonight, you could call them whimsical. It can also have the meaning of “free spirited” or “imaginative”. I don’t know what these critics are hearing, it’s difficult to assess your own playing and to see your good qualities. Further to your question, yes, I am interested in the pianists of the past. 

WB: You mean in Hofman and Friedman?

BG: Yes, definitely, but also in Cortot, Rachmaninov, Michelangeli, they were all very individual artists.

WB: You sometimes remind me of Shura Cherkassky, also in terms of repertoire, e.g the schöne blaue Donau by Schulz Evler or the Boogie woogie Etude by Morton Gould.

BG: I love him, he was a wonderful, amazing colourist with a lot of imagination. Conductors hated him, because he was not easy to follow..

WB: No, and he said “I’ll play differently tonight” when conductors were nervous!

WB: You said a pianist can quietly use his imagination, to what extent?

BG: It’s a question of integrity, you have to respect the music of course. Some artists are too personal. You have to serve the music in the best possible way. Jorge Bolet said in this respect that a performer lives with a composition for the rest of his life, whereas a composer wrote it in three weeks. The artist has the desire to serve, communicate and generate the best. The personality of an interpreter is inescapable, but you should never be different for the sake of it.

WB: I heard your colleague Jorge Luis Prats the other day in Amsterdam, he played the complete Iberia suite by Albeniz and I noticed he often didn’t respect the dynamics that you can find in the score, e.g. he played “forte” where the score asks for “piano”!

BG: The best answer is Rachmaninov in his recording of Chopin’s Second sonata, he reverses the dynamics in the Funeral March. Nobody would dare to copy it, but he executes it to perfection. It depends on what the idea is. Rachmaninov was a performer with a touch of genius who equalled the composer.

WB: Jorge Bolet one said if you respect the score too much you could become “pedantic”, what do you think?

BG: Rachmaninov played his own pieces differently each time and Bolet heard him a few times live I believe. They both lived in an era when there was so much room for improvisation. Liszt and Chopin also played in an improvisatory way, I wonder what they would think of our obsession with scores.

WB: Are we obsessed?

BG: It’s a shame to limit ourselves, playing differently doesn’t mean disregard of music, but it always has to be for a good reason. 

WB: Is the score the bible for you?

BG: Music is fluid, it’s different with each performance, that’s so wonderful about it!

WB: The programme of your recital tonight as well as your cd’s are multi-faceted. Is that because you don’t want to focus or specialize?

BG: I like varied programmes and have no desire to specialize, which is probably harder than playing Beethoven sonatas. You have to be a chameleon with a programme like tonight’s one. The piano repertoire is so huge! 

WB: How do you compose a recital like tonight’s programme: do you need a “culmination point” as Rachmaninov called it or do you choose spontaneously the way Sokolov does?

BG: You mean a climax? Chopin in his Second sonata works towards the Funeral March. The last movement of this sonata is bizarre, it’s like a nightmare. I don’t think Chopin wanted us to understand.. there is a sense of terror and it’s gone in a moment. The Liszt at the end is a powerful piece. Rubinstein said about recital programmes that the first half should be more classical, whereas the second half should be exotic or coloristic repertoire.

WB: Does there always have to be an effective piece at the end?

BG: I suppose I do end with a bang, with encores you can control the mood with which you want to finish the concert.

WB: Your colleague Grigori Sokolov said he sometimes doesn’t know why he programmes certain pieces, he just “ends up playing them” and he can’t always tell in advance what it is going to be..

BG: When you have his stature, you can afford to announce your programmes very late, but yes, it happens that you hear something and that you think: “That’s interesting”. The difficulty is that there are so many things I want to play! 

WB: As to tonight’s programme, why do you start with this Mozart sonata (K 333)?

BG: It’s like a concerto without orchestra, you can imagine how Mozart would orchestrate it. It’s also an operatic piece, it’s complex in character. 

WB: Regarding Chopin’s Second sonata that you already mentioned, Schumann said these were “four children who don’t belong together”. Do you see it as a coherent masterpiece?

BG: The third sonata seems to hang together better. There is something odd about the Second sonata, Chopin wrote the Funeral March first and the entire sonata works towards the third movement. 

WB: How should the finale be played? With a lot of pedal or in a dry way?

BG: In a soft way and legato, maybe for the entire movement , there are few markings in the score. It’s very bare, maybe Chopin doesn’t want us to understand. 

WB: Is it true that you have to repeat the Grave as well? It is supposed to be indicated in the score and Maurizio Pollini plays it in his second recording, Uchida did the same when she played it live.

BG: There is a long standing and fascinating debate about this,  and perhaps Charles Rosen best explains the case for the repeat of the first bars of the work.  Most modern editions do not address this issue,  and so it is only recently that I have become aware of it

WB: And I thought the reprise of the Funeral March should be played piano, but Guiomar Novaes and Nelson Freire play forte..

BG: Rachmaninov does the same in his recording!

WB: You play some early Scriabin tonight, do you also play his late works?

BG: Yes, but I haven’t played many of them. He is very interesting in the way he progresses. In the Mazurkas the influence of Chopin is apparent. I haven’t played any of the late sonatas, but I would like to.

WB: You include a few of Granados’s Goyescas, why do you want to include them?

BG: His music is improvisation-like, what makes it difficult. The keys change all the time, therefore it is very hard to memorize. It’s tonal music, but both harmonically and contrapuntally, it’s very difficult. I played a few of the Goyescas and I would like to play all of them.

WB: Is the rhythm the most difficult?

BG: You have to be very free, yet not sloppy!

WB: You also play repertoire that is not very often played, like the Mendelssohn Preludes and Fugues opus 35 or Medtner. Are there any less known compositions you would like to play?

BG: Many things, for instance Mompou, whom I play sometimes as an encore. He is completely unique. Next season, I will play Debussy, Prélude à l’après-midi d’un faune.

WB: For piano solo?

BG: Yes, it was arranged by Copeland, he had Debussy’s blessing!

WB: Which pianist, dead or alive, you would travel very far for?

BG: Among the dead pianists, many, for instance Kempff and Cortot, I know them so well from their recordings, I would jump at any opportunity to hear them, among the living pianists Sokolov, but he doesn’t come to the UK any more. I never heard Lupu either, I heard Argerich only once and would like to hear her again. 

WB: Is there a composer you would have loved to play for and one you would dread?

BG: I don’t know really.. Any composer would be fascinating and daunting. I’d be terrified of all of them!

WB: How satisfied are you after a performance?

BG: There is always “something”, never in the sense of: “That was awful”, sometimes I think: “That was pretty good!”

WB: Does it happen that something doesn’t go well but goes really well the next day?

BG: Yes, you try to improve on things. There are also details that went better the last day. There are many factors, a lot depends on your mood and on how tired you are. 

 

Details

Written by: Willem Boone

Zeist, 21 August 2014

At first, Boris Giltburg wasn't sure whether he had time for an interview when I approached him with this question. "Give me your email address though, I'll let you know" and thankfully I received a message the next day. He had taken a look at my site and was impressed that I had interviewed one of his idols, Grigory Sokolov "who seldom gives any". Maybe that was what won him over? I was glad that this talented artist had time to speak to me, between rehearsals of the Dvorak Piano Quintet with the Pavel Haas Quartet. It was a joy to speak to such an articulate young pianist, who knows so well what he wants to achieve..

Willem Boone (WB): I heard you in concert a few times and you always look  so beaming on stage, as if it is really the place where you want to be. Is it indeed?

Boris Giltburg (BG): Absolutely, especially when they open the doors  and you see the first glimpse of the audience. Of course there is tension before the concert, but when you sit in front of the piano, stage is the best place to be, backstage is much worse! Once you are “on”, something kicks in the brain.

WB: You said on your web log that you wish to convert people to classical music, how successful have you been so far?

BG: I tried with some of my friends. People have preconceptions about classical music; they think it is boring, elitist or inaccessible. I can only agree about it being inaccessible; with some music you need guidance in order to understand what is going on. This is, for instance, the case with compositions such as Mahler Symphonies. In fact, there is no equivalent of such pieces in pop music that last for so long and it may be difficult to listen to it without doing anything else. As a listener or as a “newbee” you may get a sense of being lost, however, if you give them signposts, classical music may provoke their interest. It may become an intellectual challenge.
I write my web log for non-musicians, trying to give inside information about what we hear when we listen to classical music, but of course as a musician, I cannot “unlearn” knowledge.

WB: When were you converted to classical music?

BG: I don’t remember exactly, but I started playing the piano at the age of five. My parents told me that I watched a TV broadcast of Emil Gilels and I told them I wanted to have a piano and a chair like him! I also remember I liked Yiddish songs when I was about three or four years old.

WB: Five is a very young age to start with lessons!

BG: I insisted! My mother said we had enough pianists in the family (both she and my grandmother play the piano), but I was too stubborn to listen.

WB: Do you think classical music can make people better people?

BG (thinks): I remember a friend of mine who told me about a rock concert she had been to and she thought of the experience as a catharsis. That is what can happen with classical music too: it has the strength to transport people somewhere else. It is an achievement of the highest human spirit, so yes, you definitely gain something of working with such material and also of listening to it. Of course, it depends on what you are listening to, classical music covers a period of 400 years, there is so much!

WB: Last year, you won first prize in the Queen Elisabeth Competition in Brussels, this is maybe a stupid question but did you expect to win?

BG: After such an intensive period, I got to a point where I stopped thinking! I was scared and nervous and after a month, I would have been happy with any outcome.. I went through so much adrenalin, there was an inability to think so to speak.

WB: My next question may be cheeky: in the semi-finals while playing Mozart’s Concerto K 450, you had a short memory lapse in the last movement. You recovered really well from that, but I couldn’t stop thinking: is this the ultimate nightmare in such an important competition with so many people in the audience?

BG: It was hard to think of something much worse at that moment. I discussed this so much, people ask me about it in almost any interview, but yes, these seconds seemed like endless and made me want to crawl away and disappear.. However, I made myself listen to the recording again and I found out what happened. There is a passage that goes up, and in the recapitulation it goes up and down. I thought while playing: “I cannot go up this high, because it was impossible on Mozart’s piano” and then it happened.

WB: Did you feel you were “dead” at that moment?

BG: Yes, with 100% certainty. But I also thought I had nothing to lose anymore and wanted to finish with as much dignity as I could. You know, I am a hopeless optimist, therefore, I thought that there might be a slight chance if I played really well. Actually,  I  played better after that moment!

WB: Did you hear right away you were through to the finals?

BG: No, I had to wait two hours, which was terrible.

WB: What happens in the jury: do you get to see their “verdict”, do they report back to you about your last performance?

BG: No, they just vote, there is no discussion. That is one of the two great things about this competition, the other being that no students of jury members are allowed.

WB: And then you played Rachmaninov Third Concerto in the finals, which was a phenomenal performance. Can we say that Mozart is more “difficult” than Rachmaninov, since the former’s music can show the slightest mistake more clearly than a “notey” concerto as Rach 3rd?

BG: Certainly, Mozart is more difficult than Rachmaninov! His music is transparent and crystal clear, everything has to be natural.  For me, Rachmaninov is much easier to understand. Technically his pianism is easier than Mozart’s or Beethoven’s. Mozart can be finger breaking! Mozart wrote mainly for himself, so there was no point of making things less difficult for others!

WB: Speaking of Rach 3rd, how difficult is it really? I thought it was one of the most difficult concertos of the entire repertoire, but several of my interviewees (Leif Ove Andsnes, Jevgeny Sudbin) said it was very pianistic and actually quite comfortable to play?

BG: I would say neither, like every great work, Rach 3rd is full of technical challenges, but they serve the music and you care much less about the technique. First of all, it is a tremendous creation of art and its emotional spectrum is enormous. I would say that the first two pages are the most challenging of all, whereas they might seem the easiest..

WB: A lot of colleagues of yours who previously won this competition did so with either this concerto or the Second Concerto by Prokofiev. What was your reason to play Rach 3rd in the finals?

BG: I played Prokofiev Second in the closing concert, I performed it for the first time   only two months before and it would have been too risky to play it in the finals. Both concertos are large scale compositions that offer the optimal combination of virtuosity and depth, they are also a test case for a successful collaboration with an orchestra and a conductor. For me either of these two concertos is less risky than Beethoven Fourth or Brahms Second. And, last but not least, Russian music is very close to me!

WB: I have been very impressed with your recording of Prokofiev’s War Sonatas. I hear you play number 8 live, last year in Arnhem, The Netherlands. Whilst you didn’t lack any power, I liked the way you played it, you made me discover new layers and you didn’t only emphasize the violence or aggressiveness of his music. Is that how you conceive Prokofiev’s music?

BG: This sonata is a typical example of a composer who was on the pinnacle of his art,  I feel the same about Liszt and the B-minor sonata or Moussorgsky and the Pictures. I love the Sixth and Seventh Sonatas too, but number eight is a balance between putting you on the battle field and filming from far way. Prokofiev resembles a talented movie camera man in this sonata. The first movement is very special; it starts in a calm, almost cold and poisonous way and out of these lines grow other motives. Both the exposition and the recapitulation are slow, only in the middle part you have to bang the hell out of the piano, well..no, you shouldn’t bang, but you have to be as aggressive and relentless as possible!

WB: Would you ever consider playing numbers 6,7 and 8 in one recital? I remember Ashkenazy, who plays all three of them, called it hell to do them in one concert..

BG: I offered to play them in one recital, but nobody accepted such a programme. All agents told me it wouldn’t “sell”. In a way, all three sonatas are finisher pieces. The bad thing is if you put any of them in another position, it becomes much more difficult to listen to, as with the Liszt-Sonata before the intermission. Number six could be an opener, seven much less so.

WB: As to number seven, I have a question about the last movement, the Precipitato. What exactly does it mean?

BG: literally it means “hastening”

WB: I thought it had to gradually gain speed, but some pianists start off so fast that you cannot go any faster!

BG: No, it’s against the nature of the music to play gradually faster, it was written as a perpetuum mobile.

WB: I listened to your recording today, you play it at breakneck speed!

BG: I wouldn’t do it as fast in concert, I probably wouldn’t play it as fast anyway as on my recording…

WB: You just mentioned the Liszt Sonata, where I noticed something similar as with your Prokofiev recording…

BG: It is his most profound and best piano work!

WB: Rachmaninov once said every composition or movement has a culmination point, what would be the culmination point in the Liszt Sonata for you?

BG: There are several: in the middle you have the feeling of being on top of a mountain while looking at a huge horizon, just before the middle section there is a dramatic climax and the octave part at the very end, where Liszt shows his exuberance..

WB: And what about these descending pianissimo scales just before the fugue?

BG: Yes, that is another incredible place, if you play these well, there is total silence in the hall.., however, with a sonata that lasts 32 minutes, you cannot mention one highlight! Neither can you in Rach Third: what would be the culmination point in the first movement? (enthuses), it’s such an amazing piece, that we have all this music is amazing!

WB: Two days ago, you played the Shostakovitsj Piano Quintet with the Borodin Quartet. It seemed a bit of an odd piece to me, the piano is almost part of the string quartet, unlike the Dvorak Piano Quintet you will be playing tonight. How do you feel about the Shostakovitsj Quintet?

BG: I must say I didn’t like it before I played it, I also thought it a “weird” piece as you said, but the more I play it, the more I liked it. Each movement has a distinct character: the Prelude almost sounds like a gothic cathedral with pillars, then it becomes post-apocalyptic, there is anger and in the recapitulation there is pity. The scherzo is biting, ironic. The fourth movement starts with bright sadness and the ending is a mixture of pain, sadness and hopelessness, that become slightly brighter in the last movement. I wouldn’t call it optimistic, but there is some hope. It has a “bad ending”, as opposed to the Dvorak Quintet, it ends in a quiet way and nobody shouts “bravo” after the last chord.. This Quintet was a success at the time, it showed that people needed hope more than anything else.

WB: We emailed before the interview and you told me that Sokolov is one of your heroes. What makes him so special for you?

BG: His palette of colours and his complete mastery at the keyboard. The way he can play two notes at the same time and yet give them their own character. There is nobody like him among the living pianists.. His recording of the Art of the Fugue is completely not in style, but it is so captivatingly done!

WB: I listened to Gilels today and I think he was extraordinary too, his pianissimo was unique!

BG: Yes, you are right, he is another one of my heroes. He showed human vulnerability, like Oistrakh. It makes them closer to you.

WB: On your web log you wrote something that intrigues me: you wrote an essay about the oboe. Is that because this instrument expresses emotions in a different way than the piano?

BG: No, not at all, I want to write about all instruments, but the problem is that it takes very long!

WB: You are not like the French pianist Yvonne Lefébure who once said during a master class that she didn’t want to hear the piano, but other instruments like the cello, the flute and the oboe?

BG: No, that’s very bad! Well, let me put it this way: if you are thinking, while seated at the piano of orchestral colours, it’s “good”, but it would be bad to imitate other instruments on the piano! During master classes, I advise students to change the colour(s) or the balance of voices, however you always need to do that in pianistic terms!

WB: A lot of pianists try to imitate the human voice, is that “ bad” too?

BG: That’s different. On paper, piano is the least singing instrument. (He asks me whether I know what the most singing instrument is and much to my amazement, it turns out to be the organ!).  We pianists try to imitate the singers’ melodic sensibility. What we can learn from singers, is to take time and stretch the intervals.

WB: Can you also learn from their phrasing?

BG: That’s what I meant by “learning from their melodic sensibility”.

WB: A last question, are you superstitious?

BG: No, I lost all of it!

WB: So I can wish you good luck for the Dvorak? 

BG: Yes, you can, but if you say: “Break a leg”, I’ll say: “Go to hell !”